10/25 NL: AA in the SB vs CO raise - Preflop and Flop advice please

shammalamma

shammalamma

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I recently started to venture into 10/25and have found the competition to be comparable with 5/10 (so far). I've been doing a lot of reading/studying trying to make the transition from a successful SNG player to a successful cash game player, with so/so results. This is the type of hand that I am left scratching my head with, and I need some good advice, preferably from the grinders with a lot of cash game experience (Chuck, Rex, Tenbob, and the others that know who they are) Don't be afraid to talk over my head or go to deep, as that's actually what I'm looking for to improve my game and fix my leaks.
Thanks for your time, as always.




Stacks:

* MP3 with $25.00
* CO with $17.90
* BTN with $18.80
* SB with $19.75
* BB with $23.25
* UTG with $24.40
* UTG+1 with $26.35
* MP1 with $34.40
* MP2 with $14.75

hand.pl

Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
Site: pokerstars
* * Dealt to SB:A♣ A♥
* * Sklansky group 1
Preflop:
* * MP3: checks
* * 4 players fold.
* * CO raises $0.75 to $1
* * 1 players fold.
* * Hero raises.. ?

First question, how much should I be 3-betting here? I don't think that flat calling is an option here, but keep in mind I have no information on the CO villain, nor the BB still yet to act, as this is my second hand at the table. Also, I'm out of position.

Unless your answer is to shove preflop (not a horrible play IMO if there was a previous raiser, followed by the CO's flat-call or reraise, but that's not the case) how should I approach the super-coordinated scare board in early position vs. the villain? Assume he calls my mystery-sized 3-bet (as shown below) and also assume he's not a LAGtard so he's at or near the top of his range.


* * CO calls [$?]
* * Total folds this street: 7

Flop:
* * 10♠ 7♠ 8♠
* * Hero .?

After the PF call I'm currently afraid of a set of either one of the 10 9 8, which is not totally unlikely (at least the 10s or 9s, 8s would be somewhat of a loose call). I'm really not putting him on JQ here, but a high spade is certainly not out of the question. If he's got an overpair of jacks with a spade he's certainly shoving back at whatever I throw at him, and he may also call/shove my C-bet with Q's or K's with a spade. AK spades is not out of the question, but I doubt it. Also, AK offsuit with one of them being spades is totally within reason. I'm a favorite against most of the top of this range besides the made flush or set (on the flop anyway)
 
shammalamma

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Wow, dont know how I misread the 7 as being a 9
It really is a 7 though
Duh!
 
The Shrog

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I'm not really sure what's going on here? It looks like you flatted PF? Maybe I'm missing something, but I'd say a good raise would be to ~$3. As for post-flop...ugh. I'd probably lead for half the pot and continue from there. You'd have to run the numbers and see how AA with no spade holds against his range, including the JsJx, and other spade hands.
 
shammalamma

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Sorry if it was confusing shrog but thanks for the reply. I meant to note that I did reraise him but I was wondering how much, and assuming that he calls my reraise (he did), whatever the size of the suggested reraise, how to approach from there.
 
WVHillbilly

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I make it about $3.50 preflop (maybe slightly less if I were in position), making the total preflop pot size $8 (since it appears MP3 posted a blind). Then, since he only has less than $18 I'm willing to get it in on ANY flop. BTW, why do you only have $19.75 at the start of this hand? Keep your stack topped off so when you do win a stack it's at least a full one.
 
FatBasset

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One thing you should consider in making your decision on your move after the flop is that he's going to put you on a big pair because of your re-raise. If I was in the villains shoes and didn't have a set or the flush, then i would be waiting to see if you are going to pot commit yourself with your bet or whether i could push you off your hand with a shove.
 
WVHillbilly

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One thing you should consider in making your decision on your move after the flop is that he's going to put you on a big pair because of your re-raise. If I was in the villains shoes and didn't have a set or the flush, then i would be waiting to see if you are going to pot commit yourself with your bet or whether i could push you off your hand with a shove.

That's why you really want to commit yourself to this pot preflop if he calls. If he calls a bet to $3.50 preflop with suited connectors or a small pair to set mine, he's made a mistake a we win.
 
BelgoSuisse

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First question, how much should I be 3-betting here? I don't think that flat calling is an option here, but keep in mind I have no information on the CO villain, nor the BB still yet to act, as this is my second hand at the table. Also, I'm out of position.

Actually, flatting is an option. The main reason you usually don't want to flat AA preflop usually is that you want to avoid multiway pots. Since you're in the SB, it's not too likely anymore, so it's not something you should totally rule out.

Things you should consider is whether villain is good enough to warrant using deception against him, if the BB is a light squeezer, if you are 3betting frequently or not (will it define your range?)

Anyway, 3betting is the standard play indeed, and then it should be about pot-sized, i.e. around $3.5.

how should I approach the super-coordinated scare board in early position vs. the villain?

If you sized your bet reasonably, pot size on flop is $8 and villain has only $14 left behind. SPR (stack to pot ratio) then commands that you play for stacks with your overpair. Folding at any point now would be horrible.

Coordinated flop means you'll want to play this fast, because even though you will loose to flopped flushes and sets, you will stack a huge amount of lesser made hands and weak draws that will stick along.

Also, losing with an OP to a flopped flush or a set in a 3bet pot against someone who plays 70 big blinds deep is not something you should bother about at all. Standard cooler, just move to the next hand.
 
BelgoSuisse

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Also, you should turn auto-reload on. No reason for your stack to be less than $25 when you start the hand.
 
bob_tiger

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Actually, flatting is an option. The main reason you usually don't want to flat AA preflop usually is that you want to avoid multiway pots. Since you're in the SB, it's not too likely anymore, so it's not something you should totally rule out. You are right flatting is not out of question, but I don't think we want to be flatting on our 2nd hand, I think flatting in this position after about 100+ hands to mix it up is not a bad idea.

Things you should consider is whether villain is good enough to warrant using deception against him, if the BB is a light squeezer, if you are 3betting frequently or not (will it define your range?)

Anyway, 3betting is the standard play indeed, and then it should be about pot-sized, i.e. around $3.5.
Yea, if I'm not misreading the hand, I believe there is a person who just came to the table and just posted a blind (MP3) so therefore I'm probably more inclined making the raise to 3.75.



If you sized your bet reasonably, pot size on flop is $8 and villain has only $14 left behind. SPR (stack to pot ratio) then commands that you play for stacks with your overpair. Folding at any point now would be horrible.

Coordinated flop means you'll want to play this fast, because even though you will loose to flopped flushes and sets, you will stack a huge amount of lesser made hands and weak draws that will stick along.

Also, losing with an OP to a flopped flush or a set in a 3bet pot against someone who plays 70 big blinds deep is not something you should bother about at all. Standard cooler, just move to the next hand.

Yea definitely playing for stacks here.
 
bob_tiger

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Also, you should turn auto-reload on. No reason for your stack to be less than $25 when you start the hand.

I think he bought in for $20, but you are right we want to buy in for max to get most value out of the hand.
 
shammalamma

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Here's what went down

Thanks for the replies and input everyone.

To answer the 'why not 25?' question, I just started .10/.25 the other day, and was not too confident at first. Under my usual BRM rules, I didn't have the stack to start playing it either, just kind've wanted to test the waters (foolish). When I first started playing 5/10 I always bought in for 80BBs rather than 100 until I built up my confidence a bit. This was my approach to 10/25 starting out, and I did have auto reload on but only for my 20$ stack, not 25$. After a few quick lessons and bad suckouts I'm back to 5/10 and tight BRM.

As you can see below, my 3bet was weak and my flop play was scared. I was actually way ahead at this point (84 : 7 according to hand history converter..), and my stack was going in one way or the other, but had I insta-shoved instead of that weak-ass 1/2 pot bet i might have been able to shake him. This is why I need analysis, I still have mega brain farts in regards to bet sizing sometimes.

But anyways, his 2-outer hits on the turn and I lose. :mad:
That stinks, and so does my bet sizing. Chances are he was going in either way had I been more aggressive, but the villain certainly isn't always holding kings in this situation, or willing to stack without the spade or set...



Preflop:

MP3: checks
4 players fold.
CO raises $0.75 to $1
1 players fold.
Hero raises $2 to $3
2 players fold.
CO calls [$2]
Total folds this street: 7
Potsize: $6.5
Flop:
10♠ 7♠ 8♠
Hero bets [$3.25]
CO raises $11.65 to $14.90 [ all-in ]
Hero calls [$11.65]
Potsize: $36.3
Turn:
K♦
Potsize: $36.3
River:
9♦
Results:
Hero shows a pair of Aces:
A♣ A♥
CO shows three of a kind, Kings:
K♥ K♣
CO collected $34.50 from pot
 
BelgoSuisse

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To answer the 'why not 25?' question, I just started .10/.25 the other day, and was not too confident at first. Under my usual BRM rules, I didn't have the stack to start playing it either, just kind've wanted to test the waters (foolish).

I don't think buying in for 80 or 100bb changes BR rules that much, tbh. because the lower you buy in for, the higher the variance.

I insta-shoved instead of that weak-ass 1/2 pot bet i might have been able to shake him.

Seriously doubt that. He would be making a real mistake folding kings here.

But anyways, his 2-outer hits on the turn and I lose. :mad:

In Sklansky bucks, it's a great result for you. That's what matters. If losing real bucks makes you :mad:, then you do need to stay at 10nl for a little more. That's one of the main aspects of moving up levels. You're ready to move up when you end up the hand profoundly happy about the result because you got all the money in way ahead, and the cards that fell after the decisions where made are irrelevant because that's variance and your BR can handle variance.
 
shammalamma

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Very good points Belgo and thanks for the advice!
 
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