$.05/$.10 NLHE: QQ shove?

S

Sohmurr

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Total posts
197
Chips
0
I had a hand a couple of days ago where I was dealt pocket Kings and ran into pocket Aces. It went similarly to this, but different players and positions. A raise, then a reraise, then a 3-bet, etc. All the money went in preflop and I lost most of the money in front of me. I used to hear consistantly about never folding KK (and usually QQ was included too) before the flop at low limits. Maybe I just had the KK hand running through my head.

But I rarely see people stacking off with weak hands like AK or AQ or worse in these low limit NLHE games anymore(though I don't play too often either, especially NLHE). I can't think of too many hands I beat in the hand below where he will 4-bet pre-flop, only JJ and maybe AK suited. I did have HUD stats on the guy but I got overexcited by the QQ and didn't pay them any attention. It's not PT3 so they're not saved and therefore can't be used to sway the decision. But he wasn't doing anything strange that I took note of.

Maybe it's a standard push and I'll be thought an idiot for even considering folding but I would like some opinions nevertheless. Is calling an option instead of making the 3-bet? What could I do differently here, if anything?

Stacks:
MP3 with $10.00
CO with $18.75
BTN with $2.15
SB with $11.95
BB with $10.85
UTG with $10.00
UTG+1 with $7.45
MP1 with $9.75
MP2 with $1.85



hand.pl

Blinds: $0.05/$0.10
Site: pokerstars
Dealt to CO:Q♦ Q♥
Sklansky group 1
Preflop:
5 players fold.
Hero raises $0.20 to $0.30
1 players fold.
SB raises $0.70 to $1
1 players fold.
Hero raises $1.10 to $2.10
SB raises $3.80 to $5.90
Hero ?
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
Jammy wham. I'm not folding this, I don't care if it is full ring. QQ+ = ship it at 10$ NL.

This makes me vomit btw:

SB raises $0.70 to $1
1 players fold.
Hero raises $1.10 to $2.10 <--- lol wtf min-raise!

4-bet to ~4$ at least. Calling's fine too, since we're in position. Whichever you prefer, but I probably just look to get it in preflop.
 
S

Sohmurr

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Total posts
197
Chips
0
Yeah, as far as the size of the 3-bet, I was trying to figure out what to raise to that wouldn't scare him away (I want value for my hand after all) but would still give him bad odds. Anyway, I miscalculated the size of the raise hence the small size of the bet. At that point I figure he could have any number of hands he's just defending against a cutoff raise.
 
C

Cobryn

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Total posts
327
Chips
0
Yeah, I'm shoving here. He doesnt have to give you credit for a pair as big as queens coming from the cut off.
 
I

islandtime2

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Total posts
86
Chips
0
I am going to go against the grain here and say "fold" as this is Deja vu for me. This also assumes you are like me and don't have a $500 bank roll yet. I have lost some large chunks of my much smaller bankroll doing exactly what you describe "I did have HUD stats on the guy but I got overexcited by the QQ and didn't pay them any attention." Right there with that statement, which I have made also, I think makes you and me dead money. I am trying not to do that anymore so unless this is a known maniac likely overbetting with total trash I fold after he re-raises your re-raise. You are only playing nickel/dime poker (that is what I usually play also). So I am not putting $6 in preflop without AA (maybe KK if I am way up for the session) and its heads up up against a known maniac. He 's got over half his stack in at this point so you are not going to be pushing him off after the flop I don't think in which case you better hit a miracle set and hope he doesnt. Your going to be swallowing hard if the flop shows a A or K. This is a cash ring game so there is no bounty or reward for knocking him out early. Maybe I am gun shy but I say pick a better spot and be in control of the pot when you get in - this one is too big pf with only QQ imho. I try to remember Doyle Brunson's famous line now for this situation "...never go broke with a Q in your hand...". If you don't believe him watch a replay of the 2004 $50k buyin wsop HORSE tourney final table NLHE where Doyle fold's QQ pf to Chip Reese's re-raise. Chip ended up having KK.
 
C

Cobryn

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Total posts
327
Chips
0
Chip Reese isnt playing .05/.10 nlhe.

So you're saying you can be pushed off of any hand thats not AA preflop at .05/.10 nlhe?

I'm gonna go ahead and say thats not a good strategy and that you're losing a lot more in profit than you are saving by making these miraculous laydowns against .05/.10 players.

To say you're not getting it in preflop with kings blows my mind.
 
Sardonix

Sardonix

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Total posts
133
Chips
0
Well theres no way in hell i'm laying down ladies here. But i wouldnt of re-reraised him. I look at this way. I usually would raise 3x plus 1x for the limpers, with that said my raise would have been more or less say 50c so he reraises me to 1 dollar or a 1.50. Its an easy call to make and see if i hit a friendly flop. I'm thinking hes got AK or some JJ and if he has KK or AA and the flop doesnt have an ace or king on it then im gonna pay him off probably.because his hand is hidden. But a A or K hits the flop i'm only losing a dollar but if nothing comes and being the maniac he is he bets the pot i'm just gonna shove and take it down. I hardly push with QQ in a cash game KK and AA all day but ladies are tough because say you push and get called its most likely a coin flip or your dominated. Even a fish can get the right hand at the wrong time for you. But if this was me and the he reraised my reraise i think id be commited so i would shove. But from the beginning of the hand i'm calling his buck reraise and i'm going to outplay him or fold after the flop.
 
I

islandtime2

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Total posts
86
Chips
0
Cobryn, you could be right. My post comes from a different background then yours I'm sure. I am just going by my limited experince playing .05/.10 with a limted bankroll that must be protected. And my experience has been most players are not bluffing or semi-bluffing with $6 going in preflop on the .05/.10 tables. I qualified that by stating unless they are known maniacs. You can generally fold here and get their money in a better spots post flop when you are more certain you have them beat. Its a cash game so you can grind them down over many hands instead of trying to get it all in one hand preflop. Sohmurr wrote this player had not done anything strange that he noted so I am giving him respect in this situation and getting out with only $2.10 lost and a head nod to Doyle's tip about Queen's. I think Shmurr wanted some different oppinions.
 
S93

S93

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Total posts
6,154
Chips
0
Cobryn, you could be right. My post comes from a different background then yours I'm sure. I am just going by my limited experince playing .05/.10 with a limted bankroll that must be protected. And my experience has been most players are not bluffing or semi-bluffing with $6 going in preflop on the .05/.10 tables. I qualified that by stating unless they are known maniacs. You can generally fold here and get their money in a better spots post flop when you are more certain you have them beat. Its a cash game so you can grind them down over many hands instead of trying to get it all in one hand preflop. Sohmurr wrote this player had not done anything strange that he noted so I am giving him respect in this situation and getting out with only $2.10 lost and a head nod to Doyle's tip about Queen's. I think Shmurr wanted some different oppinions.
Drop down to 0,2/0,5 or 0,1/0,2 if your not comfortable getting it in with KK(even QQ,JJ,AK) pre-flop at 10NL.
Pretty clear your playing scared money and loosing shitload of value.

Oh and OP with out stats that player is a 4/4 nit over 1000 hands this is an all-in every time for me at 10NL.
 
I

islandtime2

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Total posts
86
Chips
0
Well, I implied if I had a $500 bankroll I might play it differently but even then I am not very confident in this spot. Sohmurr was looking for some different opinions and I am just putting out the opinion for the case when you are still nursing a much smaller bankroll so imo this is too expensive a spot for QQ preflop in a .05/.10 ring game. Give the opponent reraising your reraise respect (haven't you just paid for that information with the reraises and he has given it to you ?) and get out. Sohmurr already said the guy has not done anything strange or of note untill now so it isn't like he is betting up every hand to get you to fold. I say don't get trapped by thinking gee if I fold now he is just going to raise me out of every pot. If he has not been playing that way untill now he is probably not going to play that way after this hand. This looks more like a case where a abc player woke up with the nuts. You tested him twice - he came over the top twice - why not say nh and move on. Shoving with QQ here looks likely to be a mistake to me. I do agree as someone else said I probably would not have reraised but just called the first reraise and then re-evaluate after the flop (likely same result) but we are where we are now - so I say folding is a valid option in this spot before you end up allin with just QQ to protect your bankroll. Plenty more hands to come. I don't think this is really what is meant by scared money - this is just not continuing with QQ in light of the reraises. If it ends up he does not have AA/KK and you would have won I would still not feel bad about it as I think you will do better in the long run on .05/.10 ring tables staying away from $6 preflop bets without the nuts. But I am here to learn so maybe it is too conservative - but that is what I would do now with the current state of my game.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
Well, I implied if I had a $500 bankroll I might play it differently but even then I am not very confident in this spot.
I stopped reading right there. You're playing with scared money. Follow proper bankroll management, because this spot is standard, and if you're not shipping it in, you're losing value.

There's currently $4.30 in the pot, and we have to shove in another $9.85 to win $14.15 (villain's remaining $9.85 plus the $4.30 already in there). Thus, we're getting 1.44:1 on our money. If villain's range is [JJ+, AK], then we're a 1.13:1 underdog to his range, and we need to ship our $ in. Even if villain never does this with jacks (which is hard to believe at 10$NL), we're still 1.47:1, and our shove is a TINY mistake.

Even if you don't like 4-betting, you have to at least call his 3-bet. You have the 3rd nuts, and you're getting odds close to what you need to setmine, regardless of your hand's actual value.
 
S93

S93

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Total posts
6,154
Chips
0
Well, I implied if I had a $500 bankroll I might play it differently but even then I am not very confident in this spot. Sohmurr was looking for some different opinions and I am just putting out the opinion for the case when you are still nursing a much smaller bankroll so imo this is too expensive a spot for QQ preflop in a .05/.10 ring game. Give the opponent reraising your reraise respect (haven't you just paid for that information with the reraises and he has given it to you ?) and get out. Sohmurr already said the guy has not done anything strange or of note untill now so it isn't like he is betting up every hand to get you to fold. I say don't get trapped by thinking gee if I fold now he is just going to raise me out of every pot. If he has not been playing that way untill now he is probably not going to play that way after this hand. This looks more like a case where a abc player woke up with the nuts. You tested him twice - he came over the top twice - why not say nh and move on. Shoving with QQ here looks likely to be a mistake to me. I do agree as someone else said I probably would not have reraised but just called the first reraise and then re-evaluate after the flop (likely same result) but we are where we are now - so I say folding is a valid option in this spot before you end up allin with just QQ to protect your bankroll. Plenty more hands to come. I don't think this is really what is meant by scared money - this is just not continuing with QQ in light of the reraises. If it ends up he does not have AA/KK and you would have won I would still not feel bad about it as I think you will do better in the long run on .05/.10 ring tables staying away from $6 preflop bets without the nuts. But I am here to learn so maybe it is too conservative - but that is what I would do now with the current state of my game.
One of the bigger mistake some players do is think exactly like this: How will this bet/call/raise effect my bankroll?
Its should never be about protecting your BR,good BRM management and drop down limits should obvs. be in play but when u start thinking about the money you could lose/win at the table you start playing sub optimally and loss money because of it.
Only thing that should matter is making the best decision based on the information at hand.
If you think folding QQ in this spot because u think villain haves KK/AA then fine but if you think you should fold here because he "might" have us and you dont whant to risk it then your losing out on a lot of value from situations like this.
 
Last edited:
nevadanick

nevadanick

Back to work ... zzzzz
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Total posts
8,477
Chips
0
This is a cash ring game so there is no bounty or reward for knocking him out early. Maybe I am gun shy but I say pick a better spot and be in control of the pot when you get in - this one is too big pf with only QQ imho. I try to remember Doyle Brunson's famous line now for this situation "...never go broke with a Q in your hand...". If you don't believe him watch a replay of the 2004 $50k buyin wsop HORSE tourney final table NLHE where Doyle fold's QQ pf to Chip Reese's re-raise. Chip ended up having KK.

The contradiction is between 'ring' and 'tourney'. Doyle laid down the ladies in a tourney where his survival was at stake. In rings, if you can't afford what is on the table in one push, and the subsequent reloads, then you're playing too high above your BR, or you need to move to limit games instead of NL.

There is another clue in his 'going broke' comment. Isn't that, again, referring to tourneys? If you've reloaded enough times in ring games that what you have in front of you on the table is 100% of your total available BR, then you shouldn't be on a NL table unless you're prepared to re-deposit.

There are many (including me) who do not particularly care for the all-in preflops in NLHE and the sometimes huge betting/raising patterns. If you truely do not like aipf without AA in the hole, nlhe ring games are not the place for you to play 'comfortably'. There is no shame in playing limit games. Some would call it 'moving down' - I would suggest it is only 'changing' your game. If you don't like being pushed all-in by one bet, play a game where that cannot happen.

Limit games allow you to tear your hair out one hair at a time. NLHE lets you do it by the handfulls.
 
S

Sohmurr

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Total posts
197
Chips
0
Alright. Well, as for resolution, I did shove all-in after he made that last raise. He called with AA. I managed to suck out majorly when the board came JTx/9/K giving me a K-high straight.

I was reviewing what Doyle Brunson said in Super System 2 about QQ after I started this thread. He talks about being only a 6:5 favorite against AK and a 4:1 dog vs AA or KK. He mentions playing cautiously and a few other points. Then I thought about how online players are supposed to be weaker than live players. Llive play is what his experience is based upon and the book mainly written towards. Then I considered that the complete opposite is also true. Many people view online players as much tougher competition than players at comperable live limits (granted there aren't any casinos hosting nickle/dime NLHE, at least as far as I'm aware).

Eventually I worked my way to the math of it all. You get QQ dealt once every 221 hands (same as AA and KK, and all individual pocket pairs). The combined chance of being dealt AA or KK is 110.5 to 1. If you're sitting at a 9-handed table, the chances someone will have AA or KK the same hand you have QQ is 221*110.5/8. (8 other people who can catch AA or KK). That means for every 3053 hands dealt, one time someone will have AA or KK while you hold QQ.

Obviously that's alot of hands. But lets look at how often that will occur. At a live table being dealt 30 hands/hour (alot for live play I think) that situation will take 102 hours of play to occur. Online, averaging 60 hands/hour means it will take 51 hours. Then you factor in that many people choose to multi-table. That means if someone averages 60 hands/hour multitabling 5 tables, QQ will run up vs. AA or KK once every 10.2 hours. But you're dealt alot of QQ in that time right? Nope. In every 10.2 hours you'll only get 13.8 QQ [60hand/hour/table * 5tables * 10.2hours / 221hands/QQ]. So, assuming all my math is correct (or near enough, lol) 1 of those 13.8 QQ will be up against AA or KK.

And since QQ is about 4:1 dog vs. AA or KK, if you're getting stacked 80% of the time in that situation you need to be making up for it in the other 12.7 times you're not against AA or KK, which can be difficult considering that you're only a slight favorite against AK. Not to mention the other times someone has a hand that beats you by catching well. And you figure many of the pots you pick up to be small. Now, many of you have PT3 and know that you're winners over the long run when you are dealt QQ. I'm not arguing QQ is a bad hand or that you should fold it all the time; that would be quite idiotic. But if my math is correct, then the cost of not folding QQ in certain pre-flop all-in situations could be bringing down your win-rates, even at low-limit tables. Also, someone please check the calculations. I've double checked it but something about what I've just written is nagging at me like something is wrong with it that I can't figure out. I really hope I'm right, because if there's some obviously blatant error staring me in the face then I'm going to feel quite foolish. :(

Quite honestly I think the math is fine. What I expect to be disagreed with, and probably quite strongly, is the reasoning. You're dealt so many hands in 10.2 hours (for example, over 3000 hands if multi-tabling 5 tables and averaging 60 hands an hour) that this small deviation from correct play by shoving alot w/ QQ in the long term will not significantly affect your win rate, right? After all, internet play has long been considered to be about volume of hands, correct? I'm not sure I know the answer to these things. And maybe I didn't know the math of the situation or have a read at the time I was playing the hand. But I'll certainly have a bit more to think about next time I've got QQ.
 
S93

S93

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Total posts
6,154
Chips
0
Alright. Well, as for resolution, I did shove all-in after he made that last raise. He called with AA. I managed to suck out majorly when the board came JTx/9/K giving me a K-high straight.

I was reviewing what Doyle Brunson said in Super System 2 about QQ after I started this thread. He talks about being only a 6:5 favorite against AK and a 4:1 dog vs AA or KK. He mentions playing cautiously and a few other points. Then I thought about how online players are supposed to be weaker than live players. Llive play is what his experience is based upon and the book mainly written towards. Then I considered that the complete opposite is also true. Many people view online players as much tougher competition than players at comperable live limits (granted there aren't any casinos hosting nickle/dime NLHE, at least as far as I'm aware).

Eventually I worked my way to the math of it all. You get QQ dealt once every 221 hands (same as AA and KK, and all individual pocket pairs). The combined chance of being dealt AA or KK is 110.5 to 1. If you're sitting at a 9-handed table, the chances someone will have AA or KK the same hand you have QQ is 221*110.5/8. (8 other people who can catch AA or KK). That means for every 3053 hands dealt, one time someone will have AA or KK while you hold QQ.

Obviously that's alot of hands. But lets look at how often that will occur. At a live table being dealt 30 hands/hour (alot for live play I think) that situation will take 102 hours of play to occur. Online, averaging 60 hands/hour means it will take 51 hours. Then you factor in that many people choose to multi-table. That means if someone averages 60 hands/hour multitabling 5 tables, QQ will run up vs. AA or KK once every 10.2 hours. But you're dealt alot of QQ in that time right? Nope. In every 10.2 hours you'll only get 13.8 QQ [60hand/hour/table * 5tables * 10.2hours / 221hands/QQ]. So, assuming all my math is correct (or near enough, lol) 1 of those 13.8 QQ will be up against AA or KK.

And since QQ is about 4:1 dog vs. AA or KK, if you're getting stacked 80% of the time in that situation you need to be making up for it in the other 12.7 times you're not against AA or KK, which can be difficult considering that you're only a slight favorite against AK. Not to mention the other times someone has a hand that beats you by catching well. And you figure many of the pots you pick up to be small. Now, many of you have PT3 and know that you're winners over the long run when you are dealt QQ. I'm not arguing QQ is a bad hand or that you should fold it all the time; that would be quite idiotic. But if my math is correct, then the cost of not folding QQ in certain pre-flop all-in situations could be bringing down your win-rates, even at low-limit tables. Also, someone please check the calculations. I've double checked it but something about what I've just written is nagging at me like something is wrong with it that I can't figure out. I really hope I'm right, because if there's some obviously blatant error staring me in the face then I'm going to feel quite foolish. :(

Quite honestly I think the math is fine. What I expect to be disagreed with, and probably quite strongly, is the reasoning. You're dealt so many hands in 10.2 hours (for example, over 3000 hands if multi-tabling 5 tables and averaging 60 hands an hour) that this small deviation from correct play by shoving alot w/ QQ in the long term will not significantly affect your win rate, right? After all, internet play has long been considered to be about volume of hands, correct? I'm not sure I know the answer to these things. And maybe I didn't know the math of the situation or have a read at the time I was playing the hand. But I'll certainly have a bit more to think about next time I've got QQ.
2 things:
1."Online players are supposed to be weaker then live"
This statment couldnt be more wrong imo,i play both live and online and even thou there are always massive amounts of donks and fish online the average online player is imo 10x beter then the avarge live player.
Seriously try a 1/2$ or a 2/4$ live game,its about the equvilent to 0,05/0,10$ and 0,10/0,25$ online table.
And they live tourney players tend to be way more passive then online players playing the same stakes.

2.
No one is saying folding QQ isnt the best move in lots of cases but this isnt one of them imo,against an unknown(witch i asumed villain in this hand is seeing u included no stats,and the only read was "nothing out of line") villain at 10NL were players are willing to stack with TT+,AJ+ and worse make stacking with it preflop profitable even thou u sometimes ocasional run into AA/KK

nice post btw,i wont bother running the math my self since my math skills suck but it looks about right to me....
 
S

Sohmurr

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Total posts
197
Chips
0
2 things:
1."Online players are supposed to be weaker then live"
This statment couldnt be more wrong imo,i play both live and online and even thou there are always massive amounts of donks and fish online the average online player is imo 10x beter then the avarge live player.
Seriously try a 1/2$ or a 2/4$ live game,its about the equvilent to 0,05/0,10$ and 0,10/0,25$ online table.
And they live tourney players tend to be way more passive then online players playing the same stakes.

2.
No one is saying folding QQ isnt the best move in lots of cases but this isnt one of them imo,against an unknown(witch i asumed villain in this hand is seeing u included no stats,and the only read was "nothing out of line") villain at 10NL were players are willing to stack with TT+,AJ+ and worse make stacking with it preflop profitable even thou u sometimes ocasional run into AA/KK

nice post btw,i wont bother running the math my self since my math skills suck but it looks about right to me....

Yeah. I addressed #1 a few sentences later by saying that the complete opposite is also a possibility. I've never played NLHE live myself, only LHE, but the players are worse live for me than online too. I was just pointing out that I often see people remarking how poor low limit NLHE online players are.

And #2 is really the crux of the issue. I don't play enough NLHE to see very many people going all-in w/ AQ, AJ, TT, etc preflop alot. I guess I just need to trust the opinions of the more experienced that players will go in with those hands, thus making QQ all-in preflop more profitable.
 
V

viking999

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Total posts
512
Chips
0
I've double checked it but something about what I've just written is nagging at me like something is wrong with it that I can't figure out. I really hope I'm right, because if there's some obviously blatant error staring me in the face then I'm going to feel quite foolish.

The math isn't exactly right because you're not figuring that for each player that doesn't have AA or KK it's more likely that the next player does. Also, you're counting situations where you have QQ against both AA and KK as two instances where your QQ is beat. Same goes for QQ against two AA's or two KK's. It's pretty close, though.

You're also ignoring the role of pot odds. By the time you could reasonably make a preflop fold with QQ, the pot is often big enough so that you're not making that big of a mistake by stacking off.

Also, you didn't bring up the fact that you're going to be up against AK more often than AA and KK combined.

But I think the real problem is your way of thinking about it is WAAAY more complicated than it needs to be. You've identified a potential problem in your "grand scheme". However, fixing the problem is entirely reliant on you making the right decision during the hand. The solution is just whether in the moment there's enough in the pot to justify you stacking off against your opponent's range (including probability distributions) based on your chance of beating the hands in that range at showdown.
 
I

islandtime2

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Total posts
86
Chips
0
So, do you math studs ever allow your "reads" trump the math ? The opponent's betting pattern, as noted, before the hand and especially during this just screams AA or KK to me. Are you men or bots!

(I'm kidding - interesting posts - continuing with QQ here still looks like a kamikazi play to me - but I hope that it is ok to disagree agreeably here - thanks!)
 
Top