.02/.05 NLHE 6-max: Nut Flush Draw - What's the right play on the turn?

RogueRivered

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.02/.05 NL HE 6-max: Nut Flush Draw - What's the right play on the turn?

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 26/19/3.3

I am posting this because I think I played the turn wrong, but I'm not sure. I checked and called, but what about check/raise? Then I'd definitely have pot odds. As it was, the odds were a little short. Or should I just fold, or maybe bet again on the turn after raising the flop? :confused: (ignore the chat in the hand history -- it was from a previous hand). Thanks for your input.


Stacks:
* BTN with $7.75
* SB with $7.29
* BB with $13.61
* UTG with $3.22
* MP with $1.95
* CO with $9.56

hand.pl


hand.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: pokerstars
* * Dealt to MP:A♦ 9♦
* * Sklansky group 5
Preflop:
* * 1 players fold.
* * Hero calls [$0.05]
* * CO calls [$0.05]
* * 1 players fold.
* * SB calls [$0.03]
* * BB: checks
* * Total folds this street: 2
* * Potsize: $0.2
Flop:
* * Q♦ 3♥ 10♦
* * SB: checks
* * BB bets [$0.15] [BTN] after All In and call....2 pair no good
* * Hero raises $0.30 to $0.45
* * CO calls [$0.45]
* * [UTG] i knew better
* * 2 players folded.
* * Total folds this street: 2
* * Potsize: $1.25
Turn:
* * 7♥
* * Hero: checks
* * CO bets [$0.60]
* * [SB] great tym 4 my fav show 2 cum on im in the green cya guys
* * 2 players fold.
* * Hero calls [$0.60]
* * Potsize: $2.45
River:
* * J♦
* * Hero: checks
* * CO: checks
Results:
* * Hero shows a flush, Ace high:
* * A♦ 9♦
* * CO doesn't show.
* * Hero collected $2.35 from pot

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slycbnew

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Before looking at the turn, you should re-load your stack prior to this hand and raise preflop. All the bet sizing changes if Hero raises pf, and Hero's shortstack will be all-in in no time (which would be good - but having a full stack all-in would be better).

Villain's call on the flop raise says he's got something he likes, probably top pair, or he's on a draw. Your flop raise could mean you've got top pair (if you'd raised pf, Villain probably will think you're holding AQ or KQ), but the turn check/call as played screams you're drawing, and you won't get paid off on the river when the flush hits.

I like leading the turn, which disguises your flush draw a bit. Then when the flush hits the river (assuming you're not all-in on the turn) you can bet without it being clear whether you're holding a flush or a pair (or two pair, set, whatever). Villain may be holding QJo, for example - if Hero's betting all the way, and the Jd hits the river, it's harder for Villain to put you on the flush and fold the two pair.

Depending on your read on Villain, if the flush doesn't hit the river, you may also be able to continue representing a TPTK type hand on the river, but not after a c/c on the turn.
 
RogueRivered

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Thank you. That all makes sense. I am playing a short stack, however, since my bankroll hasn't grown high enough yet to put down $10 at once. Does that change your answer at all? Should I go all-in on the flop with a short stack?
 
Richyl2008

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Raise preflop if your gonna play this hand, to try and get the blinds or gain position postflop. As played, after you raise the flop you have committed 25% of your stack. If you raise to 60c here and get 1 caller, you set yourself up for a ~pot sized turn shove, which gives you better chances of winning the pot unimproved, so your not left on the river ch/folding after you have invested over half your stack. Also as played you should shove the river you have like 80c left and the pot is over $2. If you insist on playing a stack of this size you might want to try to size your bets to go in on the turn unless your not committed.

20c pfr with 1 caller= 42-47 c
followed by a pot sized flop bet should usually get you there on the turn.

Also realize if you are setmining with a stack this size with your small pairs you are likely burning money, unless they are minraising pre
 
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orangepeeleo

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PF i'm raising A9s folded to me in MP, i'd have raised the flop also, given that the button just flats on that board i think he could be drawing, has a weak queen or maybe a 10.

On the turn I would call a bet giving me 3-1 pot odds if i thought i could get another bet out of him on the river when i hit, but this guys stats don't look too bad so i wouldnt rely on that happening here, he's not shown any huge amount of strength so i wouldnt have flat called a bet giving me 2-1 tbh. I think if you do call that turn bet you have to bet out a min of 60c to at least try and get some more value when you hit on the river.

The only reason in my mind i would call a 2-1 bet on the turn is if i knew the guy went bluff crazy when draws hit and he gets checked to, given that the guy doesn't have awful stats i don't think you have implied odds to make the call on the turn.

I don't know about leading out on the turn either, he called a check raise so i don't think he's giving up, it would maybe hide the fact that you're drawing unless you bet draws a lot, but your oop, what do you do if you don't hit on the river then??

Could be totally wrong here lol but just my 2c worth :D
 
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orangepeeleo

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Doh, didnt even think about stack sizes, this is something i really need to pay attention to lol I auto assume that everyone plays at least 100bb's deep. Sorry, my post is now probably totally wrong
 
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orangepeeleo

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since my bankroll hasn't grown high enough yet to put down $10 at once

I'm playing 5NL (again) and buy in for $5 you don't need $10 at the table to play 5NL, if you buyin for the same amount of blinds at 10NL the rake will be killing you, I'd start buying in for 100bb's if i was you.

Hopefully this has helped a bit more than my first reply lol
 
slycbnew

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PF i'm raising A9s folded to me in MP, i'd have raised the flop also, given that the button just flats on that board i think he could be drawing, has a weak queen or maybe a 10.

On the turn I would call a bet giving me 3-1 pot odds if i thought i could get another bet out of him on the river when i hit, but this guys stats don't look too bad so i wouldnt rely on that happening here, he's not shown any huge amount of strength so i wouldnt have flat called a bet giving me 2-1 tbh. I think if you do call that turn bet you have to bet out a min of 60c to at least try and get some more value when you hit on the river.

The only reason in my mind i would call a 2-1 bet on the turn is if i knew the guy went bluff crazy when draws hit and he gets checked to, given that the guy doesn't have awful stats i don't think you have implied odds to make the call on the turn.

I don't know about leading out on the turn either, he called a check raise so i don't think he's giving up, it would maybe hide the fact that you're drawing unless you bet draws a lot, but your oop, what do you do if you don't hit on the river then??

Could be totally wrong here lol but just my 2c worth :D

Hero's the aggressor once he raises the flop (which is why we prefer raising pf as well) - we're looking for the flush to actually hit, but he should have good FE against weak Q's, second pairs, and draws, all of which will call the flop raise, but several (not all) of which will fold unimproved on the turn, I think. Of course, the short stack affects this, because we're getting close to being pot committed with the flop raise (one of the reasons I don't like playing as a ss), so Villain's call may mean more than I'm giving it credit.

With a full stack, I'd want to continue pressure on the turn by leading, and evaluating whether to give the hand up on the river if my draw doesn't hit. While I'm keeping in mind the odds of me ending up with the best hand at showdown, I'd actually like to take the pot before there's a need to showdown.

I think one of my biggest leaks is when I start thinking about whether I should call or not based on odds. When I start thinking about whether I have odds to call, I start thinking about whether I should raise or fold - odds to call generally means I'm chasing, and I spew $$$ when I'm chasing. I think 6max almost demands you to play as the aggressor, or to fold.

Just my thoughts, and I'm still working through them, so TIFWIW.

But I'm not at all familiar with short stack play, there may be method to what looks like madness to me, maybe someone else could comment? It seems to me from 25NL that in general the ss will shove this flop with the nut fd? Richy shows the right way to build the pot to get this stack all in on the turn, if not a shove on the flop.
 
Richyl2008

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Playing with 40bbs is kinda awkward. I believe full stacking 2nl will be more profitable, rake is going to be a bigger factor at 5nl, since more pots reach $1, The shorter your stack the smaller your edge is going to be and the higher the variance.

Alot of the money won by shortstackers is from them shoving over what appear to be light opens by full stacked players. So a tag player might open 5x from the button isolating a limper and your in the big blind and push for your remaing 19bb with A5s risking 19 to win 7.5bb. Lots of times both players will fold, and if called you'll usually still have around 30% equity. There will be a lot of flips in there where you will just lose money to the rake over time, so picking up the dead money is important.

You cannot do this with 40bbs (which is not really a shortstack) cause you risk too much to win too little preflop. If you make a huge allin 3bet your only gonna get called by top hands, unless the player is really bad.

Your really restricted in the hands you can play profitably, and some of the moves you can make. IMO the best thing about a 40bb stack is it is really easy to play hands like tpgk and overpairs after making a 4-5x preflop raise, but otherwise theres probably going to be a lot of awkward spots involved with limited maneuverability
 
RogueRivered

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he's not shown any huge amount of strength so i wouldnt have flat called a bet giving me 2-1

I'm getting 3-1 here, so I have odds to call.

if you buyin for the same amount of blinds at 10NL the rake will be killing you, I'd start buying in for 100bb's if i was you.

I think you might be right. I hadn't thought much about that.

we're getting close to being pot committed with the flop raise

I don't really understand the concept of "pot commitment." I guess it means you can't fold if the pot is large, but if you know you're beat, shouldn't you fold anyway?

odds to call generally means I'm chasing

But if you have odds, how can taking the bet be bad? In the long run, you'll win. You just don't give yourself as many ways to win by calling vs. raising.

Playing with 40bbs is kinda awkward. I believe full stacking 2nl will be more profitable, rake is going to be a bigger factor at 5nl

I see what you mean, I think I'm going to go back to 2nl and play 100bbs and see how it goes.

Thank you everyone. This advice really got me thinking.
 
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orangepeeleo

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I'm getting 3-1 here, so I have odds to call.

Yes, you are getting 3-1, apologies for my bad maths, but you need 4-1 pot odds to call on a fd unless i'm mistaken, so your not getting odds to call unless you think you can get a bet out of him on the river, and your oop which makes it harder to extract more value from a villain who i dont think you'll get value from anyways.
 
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orangepeeleo

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i wouldnt have flat called a bet giving me 2-1 tbh. I think if you do call that turn bet you have to bet out a min of 60c to at least try and get some more value when you hit on the river.

The only reason in my mind i would call a 2-1 bet on the turn is if i knew the guy went bluff crazy when draws hit and he gets checked to, given that the guy doesn't have awful stats i don't think you have implied odds to make the call on the turn.

For future readers, please change the 2-1's to 3-1's as i can't count lol

I seem to have become too accustomed to stars adding everything up for me and forgot to add the villains 60c to the 1.25 pot, doh!
 
slycbnew

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I don't really understand the concept of "pot commitment." I guess it means you can't fold if the pot is large, but if you know you're beat, shouldn't you fold anyway?



But if you have odds, how can taking the bet be bad? In the long run, you'll win. You just don't give yourself as many ways to win by calling vs. raising.

I'm not stating this very well, so bear with me.

I prefer being the aggressor in this hand and representing a strong hand from preflop through the turn, even though we're just on a draw. I love the flop raise because it does just that, and would prefer continuing representing a very strong hand. In that sense, it sort of doesn't matter what the odds are, nor what your hand is, because Hero's saying he's perfectly happy to get to a showdown (i.e., Hero's repping AQ, KQ, overpair, etc.) - and you're hoping to take the pot without a showdown.

The other extreme would be to flat preflop and flat the flop and evaluate the odds of hitting the fd on the turn. On a passive table, or in a passive hand, it's fine and correct to evaluate the odds and whether to call based on odds. A strong Villain or two, though, makes this line really difficult to execute effectively more than once or twice, because they'll start making it too expensive to draw on such hands whether they have a hand or not - i.e., once they figure out that specific players or the table generally is drawing a lot, they'll start giving poor odds to call.

My leak I was referring to is when I start getting into that more passive mode - I'll hit a draw or two in passive mode, then I start making marginal calls that scream to anyone paying attention that I'm drawing, and I get exploited badly by smart Villains. I'm trying to force myself into the aggressive mode as much as possible. From a pot odds standpoint, a turn bet doesn't make any sense. From an aggression standpoint, not betting the turn (IMO) doesn't make any sense.

One side note - it's unlikely Villain will pay you off to a river bet once the flush hits if you play a relatively passive line, it's obvious Hero hit his draw. For the aggressive line, though, it's not clear that you were drawing at all - so you're more likely to get paid by a river bet.

For pot commitment - I was thinking if the play had run with a pf raise of $.20, and a flop bet of around $.40, you'd have 1/3 of your stack in before the turn. If I'm willing to put 1/3 of my stack in at the flop, I ought to be willing to put my entire stack in if Villain forces the pace - and I'm looking to make a turn bet of around $.80 to $1, which means I may as well put your whole stack in because there isn't enough left to protect or to make a good river bet. So, if I look at my hand and the playing situation and think I don't want to be playing my stack here, I shouldn't have 1/3 of my stack in before the turn, because that effectively commits me to playing my stack.
 
RogueRivered

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Yes, you are getting 3-1, apologies for my bad maths, but you need 4-1 pot odds to call on a fd unless i'm mistaken, so your not getting odds to call

With the benefit of knowing what my opponent had after the fact, we see that he did indeed have the weak Queen you all predicted. In fact, I think he could have had AQ or even trips, and we are still getting correct odds to call (3.08:1). According to the HEM replayer, I'm getting Pot Odds of 24% but I have a 27% chance to win the hand. I suppose my ace overcard pairing would make the difference between 3-1 and 4-1 on the flush draw. Calling is very slightly profitable. But maybe there are more profitable lines.

I now agree with the consensus opinion; I should have raised pre-flop.

I'm not stating this very well, so bear with me.

Wow, you stated this unbelievably well! I now have many more things to think about and try to digest, because the concepts are almost over my head. Thanks for taking the time to explain so thoroughly.

I suppose this is an EV math problem. I've seen these done in books, but this seems pretty complicated. Is my expected value better repping the strong hand from the start and hoping to win without a showdown but able to win big if I hit, or going all-in on the flop, or calling and trying to keep the 3rd player involved to improve the pot odds? So many things to consider! I guess that's where experience comes in since nobody (?) could calculate all this in the heat of the moment.

I agree about smart opponents starting to take advantage if I played this way all the time. The villain in this hand made a mistake by not raising enough to make my call wrong. Next time I may not be so lucky.

After thinking about the math more carefully, I see that my OP idea of check-raising the turn to get odds is definitely wrong. There's no way I can bet enough to make up for being a 3-1 dog. Perhaps as a bluff it has merit. I usually try to play straightforwardly and not make big bluffs at these levels. I can see that I'll have to add more to my repertoire as I move up in stakes, though.
 
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GrantGreen

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1) Play with a full stack
2) Raise when you enter a pot at 6 max
3) You don't really need to be playing A9s from UTG+1 at $5NL
4) It can be OK to play a draw passively in position (you will at least get a bet when you hit), but playing passively out of position and then checking when you hit is bad.
 
J

jumping jack flash

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1) Play with a full stack
2) Raise when you enter a pot at 6 max
3) You don't really need to be playing A9s from UTG+1 at $5NL
4) It can be OK to play a draw passively in position (you will at least get a bet when you hit), but playing passively out of position and then checking when you hit is bad.

i agree entirely, also slys comments about "when im looking for odds im chasing passively etc" excellent analysys illustrating the need to take the lead in the hand
 
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soonerdel

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flatting the turn is fine.. but whats up with checking the river ?
ur getting above odds to call the turn and hit what u wanted.. any decent bet on the river should extract value.
 
RogueRivered

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flatting the turn is fine.. but whats up with checking the river ?
ur getting above odds to call the turn and hit what u wanted.. any decent bet on the river should extract value.

Well, I felt like it was obvious that I was on a flush draw, so if it hit, my bet wouldn't get paid off. I was going to check raise in case the villain decided to take another stab at it. I was kind of hoping he was on a flush draw, too. Maybe just a small bet on the river would have been called by the villain for curiosity sake.
 
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jumping jack flash

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Well, I felt like it was obvious that I was on a flush draw, so if it hit, my bet wouldn't get paid off. I was going to check raise in case the villain decided to take another stab at it. I was kind of hoping he was on a flush draw, too. Maybe just a small bet on the river would have been called by the villain for curiosity sake.

i see your thinking but cant help but think that a bet on the river could have caused him to call ,if he had made any kind of hand which i assume he did ,(by the looks of it he probably wouldnt have but meh)
 
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GrantGreen

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If you were 'obviously' on a flush draw, and the flush comes, and then you check, he will often check behind to avoid the 'obvious' check raise that you were planning.
 
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