0.5/1 Limit river bet?

Should I have bet on the river?

Stage #746590649: Holdem Normal $0.50/$1 - 2007-08-28 01:29:00 (ET)
Table: SAINT PIERRE HWY (real money) Seat #2 is the dealer
Seat 5 - TRISAIL ($7.10 in chips)
Seat 6 - RENENET ($17.60 in chips)
Seat 7 - ROLLINSLOWLY ($30.30 in chips)
Seat 8 - CRAZYDI ($18.05 in chips)
Seat 9 - EFFEXOR ($26.40 in chips)
Seat 1 - IMIT1001 ($21.30 in chips)
TRISAIL - Posts small blind $0.25
RENENET - Posts big blind $0.50
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to EFFEXOR [5s 7s]
ROLLINSLOWLY - Folds
CRAZYDI - Calls $0.50
EFFEXOR - Calls $0.50
IMIT1001 - Calls $0.50
TRISAIL - Calls $0.25
RENENET - Checks
*** FLOP *** [6h 7h Qc]
TRISAIL - Bets $0.50
RENENET - Folds
CRAZYDI - Calls $0.50
EFFEXOR - Calls $0.50
IMIT1001 - Calls $0.50
*** TURN *** [6h 7h Qc] [4c]
TRISAIL - Bets $1
CRAZYDI - Calls $1
EFFEXOR - Calls $1
IMIT1001 - Raises $2 to $2
TRISAIL - Folds
CRAZYDI - Calls $1
EFFEXOR - Calls $1
*** RIVER *** [6h 7h Qc 4c] [8c]
CRAZYDI - Checks
EFFEXOR - Checks
IMIT1001 - Checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
CRAZYDI - Shows [Qh Kd] (One pair, queens)
EFFEXOR - Shows [5s 7s] (Straight, four to eight)
IMIT1001 - Mucks
EFFEXOR Collects $10.45 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($11.50) | Rake ($0.55) | Jackpot Rake ($0.50)
Board [6h 7h Qc 4c 8c]
Seat 1: IMIT1001 HI: [Mucked] [Jh Qs]
Seat 5: TRISAIL (small blind) Folded on the TURN
Seat 6: RENENET (big blind) Folded on the FLOP
Seat 7: ROLLINSLOWLY Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 8: CRAZYDI HI:lost with One pair, queens [Qh Kd - P:Qh,B:Qc,P:Kd,B:8c,B:7h]
Seat 9: EFFEXOR won Total ($10.45) HI$10.45) with Straight, four to eight [5s 7s - B:8c,P:7s,B:6h,P:5s,B:4c]

I think you can get value from a queen or a hand like 87 or 76 here. Also Imit1001 may well have slowplayed a set of 6s or 7s on the flop. A runner-runner club flush isn't likely and i don't think that imit1001 would have raised the turn with t9 or that crazydi would have called the flop and turn bets with it, unless it was T9 of hearts.

Without trying to be rude, this is just ugly, Effexor.

Limit holdem is all about solid starting values and immediate odds. Implied odds are always smaller due to the betting structure, and limping with 57s type hands is really bad unless you're getting great pot odds.

Take a step back and look at this hand - we've put money in all the way to the river with 57s preflop, and middle pair, then we check our straight on the river. Fold preflop, fold flop, turn is ok considering we now have outs, and river we have to bet.

ChuckTs said:

Without trying to be rude, this is just ugly, Effexor.

Limit holdem is all about solid starting values and immediate odds. Implied odds are always smaller due to the betting structure, and limping with 57s type hands is really bad unless you're getting great pot odds.

Take a step back and look at this hand - we've put money in all the way to the river with 57s preflop, and middle pair, then we check our straight on the river. Fold preflop, fold flop, turn is ok considering we now have outs, and river we have to bet.

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exactly what I'm thinking on this one. I would be pissed off i was the other player. i don't know how can you call it down like that. you just got really really lucky. and why would you check on the river? you got to bet on the river.

I won't give you crap about preflop action because what's done is done. I'll say this though, folding on the flop is not necessarily correct, because of the size of the pot. We're getting 7:1 (often 8:1 if the person behind us calls, and if we know that he's passive we're not likely to be raised, which is the real danger) and we very often have five clean outs + backdoors, and we're in decent position.

That said, yes, you really really have to bet this river. When four to a straight gets on the table, very few people are going to bet in position on the river without the nuts or as a total bluff. We have no reason to believe he'd be bluffing; someone who raises the field - three people! - on the turn does not expect anyone to fold, he expects to be called. He has a good hand.

But virtually no made hand other than the straight will bet this river. Sometimes a set may put in another bet on the river, but don't get your hopes up too high.

On the button if limped to me by a couple of people, I might be tempted to call this preflop and have a look since we would have nice pot odds and position. Second to act, this is always a fold, since nothing tells us we're not facing a raise later and we'll have average position. I want to close the action with such a drawing hand since I want to check myself a free card on the flop, draw to proper odds or trap in dead money if I flop something good or huge (FH for example).

Flop I tend to say fold a lot of the time since we are holding middle pair no kicker and runner-runner to a straight. But the pot is big and we aren't likely to get raised, so peeling one off is probably okay, but with subsequent streets, we have to realize that our equity will go down and not up due to overcards, two pairs hitting on us if it goes multiway and our hand doesn't fill or improve. On the other hand, our effective odds are pretty low: the pot is lying us around 8:1 now, but we have to put a BB on the turn the times we don't hit, meaning we invest 1.5BB to win 7.125BB (on the river assuming all opponents still bet and call) and the odds are even lower if we get raised at any point. Since our odds of winning with the measley 7's are very low against four players, we need to fill in order for our play to pay off. We'd need 20+% equity to make this play +EV in the long run and I doubt we have it multiway. I don't see a raise here working, what with the decent pot odds opponent would still be getting out of the bloated pot. Maybe I'm a nit, but I fold.

Turn I'd also play is passive and only call since we now have outs for the straight, two pairs, and the pot is large. But, I would've preferred a flop fold.

River, you need to bet this since the raiser won't bet it if it is checked to him. The 8 is scary even fo a set, so bet it yourself. You'll never get a c/r here.

Just to show that this is a good example why you should not* play rags unless you assume you'll close the action. Against weaker opponents, it could be correct to raise preflop to isolate the early limpers and maybe bloat the pot a bit by the blinds calling, but we need to buy the button to make 57s playable most the time we don't hit the flop very hard (check us a free card, avaluate the odds better, lay down in good spots, etc).

We need to get our money in with solid holdings. T9s would've been nice since you have more chance of holding the best flush, the best pair, it produces less gutshots and you are in the upper range (ie. ahead) of suited connectors most people won't open raise with preflop in MP. 57s is garbagey.

*Disclaimer: Should not in a basic TAG money-making strategy assuming poor to decent opponents.

On the button if limped to me by a couple of people, I might be tempted to call this preflop and have a look since we would have nice pot odds and position. Second to act, this is always a fold, since nothing tells us we're not facing a raise later and we'll have average position. I want to close the action with such a drawing hand since I want to check myself a free card on the flop, draw to proper odds or trap in dead money if I flop something good or huge (FH for example).

Flop I tend to say fold a lot of the time since we are holding middle pair no kicker and runner-runner to a straight, but the pot is big and we aren't likely to get raised, so peeling one off is also okay, but with subsequent streets, we have to realize that our equity will go down and not up due to overcards, two pairs hitting on us if it goes multiway and our hand doesn't fill or improve.

Turn I'd also play is passive and only call since we now have outs for the straight, two pairs, and the pot is large.

River, you need to bet this since the raiser won't bet it if it is checked to him. The 8 is scary even fo a set, so bet it yourself. You'll never get a c/r here.

On the button if limped to me by a couple of people, I might be tempted to call this preflop and have a look since we would have nice pot odds and position.

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IMO, small suited connectors, or semi-connectors, should only be played from the blinds. I don't think you are getting the correct pot odds from the button even when there are a couple of limpers ahead of your. With a hand like this you should be getting somewhere around 11:1 which can only come from the blinds.

The river card is a tempting one to check raise but most of the time it will be checked down by everyone else. So a bet has to be made for full value and I wouldn't be afraid of a better hand here.

ChuckTs said:

Without trying to be rude, this is just ugly, Effexor.

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I wouldn't post here if I didn't want your honest opinions. I'm a big boy.

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I'm working on this limit thing, and so far it seems to me that drawing hands are more +EV than big pockets. Maybe my sample size is far too small, but all the big pots I've won were with drawing hands, and all the big pots I lost were with hands like AA / AK / AQ since nobody ever folds.

I promise to post more disasters in the future for your reading pleasure.