River Betting (Day 12 Course Discussion)

Debi · Apr 15, 2020

Find the crucial question you should ask yourself when you are considering River Betting.

If you have not yet read Day 12 and watched the video for Day 12 - take a few minutes now to do that and then come back here to discuss it:

River Betting

Collin says that all river bets or raises are fundamentally value bets or bluffs. Let us know what you think about this and what you learned about betting on the river. Do you have any questions for Collin or Katie on this topic?

Polytarp · Apr 24, 2020

I may have learned something here. I try to never let anyone get a free-ride unless I have a high flush draw in the the making so I always bet out if I have something. When the river comes up, at this point everyone should have something or should have missed something.
It's a coin toss as to whether I should bet out or just check...this is highly contingent on who is at the river with me.
Perhaps I've been too aggressive because my usual approach is to have priced everyone out at the river and bet accordingly. I have slow-played monster hands to the end as well because I sometimes had a suspicion that another "lurker-in-the-weeds" was doing the same thing.

PsychoVas · May 2, 2020

Good one too.
Just a question:
In the pocket fives hand, do you think that our opponent would have played any 9x hand differently? Are we really bluff-catching if we call or just paying off a better hand?

Collin Moshman · May 5, 2020

Psycho, yes we are bluff-catching if we call there. He hasn't shown a lot of strength; he could absolutely be bluffing; we likely beat all of his bluffs; and we will definitely show a profit by calling in the long run even though sometimes he'll have 9X or another hand that beats us.

Hope that helps!

Luvart · May 6, 2020

Finished Day #12.

River betting is one of the very fundamental and crucial concepts for winning poker. It really needs a lot of practice, countless failed river bets, and brutal patience till someone can claim that they've "mastered" this concept.

I also think that it's even more important for cash games.

My answer to today's quiz:

I would not put a bet here. 4way pot at the river, what worse hands could call a bet? An A10? An A5s? A KQ? Very difficult, bearing in mind that players limped preflop, so I think with that type of hands, at least one player would have made a raise pre. Also I don't think that there are many hands better than my hand, that would fold here. Definitely not any 9x hand, not the good Jx top pair hands, A8/K8 hands, especially if we make a small blocking type of bet here of ~25-35% of the pot.

Tomorrow with Day #13.

cferdi · May 6, 2020

Luvart said:
Finished Day #12.

River betting is one of the very fundamental and crucial concepts for winning poker. It really needs a lot of practice, countless failed river bets, and brutal patience till someone can claim that they've "mastered" this concept.

I also think that it's even more important for cash games.

My answer to today's quiz:

I would not put a bet here. 4way pot at the river, what worse hands could call a bet? An A10? An A5s? A KQ? Very difficult, bearing in mind that players limped preflop, so I think with that type of hands, at least one player would have made a raise pre. Also I don't think that there are many hands better than my hand, that would fold here. Definitely not any 9x hand, not the good Jx top pair hands, A8/K8 hands, especially if we make a small blocking type of bet here of ~25-35% of the pot.

Tomorrow with Day #13.

Agree with both your quiz answers and your comment on today's lesson! It is a very powerful one, despite seemingly simple.

I've often had a difficult choice on the river and I find this one lesson will be very helpful in this regard. No more 'Oh my God, they've just made their xxx, should I bet anyway or check/call/fold?', or 'Shit I missed all my 15 outs! Now what?' lol - Now at least I have a much better and more logical approach to dealing with the river "WWHD?" :laugh:

"Are there better hands that will fold or worse that will call?" is a MUCH better question to ask myself - can't wait to try it out!

jeanpierre1279 · May 6, 2020

Day 12-Ask Yourself This Question Every Time You Bet the River

I really liked the thoughts on how to bet on the river because I always thought about my hand (I know it's a mistake), but what is right is what the opponent can have hands or what he demonstrated during the flop, turn or river?

I know that it is still very difficult for me to call bluffs or worse hands outside the standard of betting because I still don't know if the villain played a slow game or really has nothing, let's say I'm still in the dangerous percentage of 60% of hits.

Improving the villain's range is necessary to make the right decision in the end.

About the concept of the worst hands to call, I really improved my game a lot when I started using it, but about the worst hands folding didn't. In games where I always play better hands, I payed but I noticed that this is directly linked to the villain's style and if his stack covers me.

I think with a better stack and showing (at least for the table) that you really play good hands I think you will have more productivity on the river.

Collin Moshman · May 10, 2020

cferdi said:
Agree with both your quiz answers and your comment on today's lesson! It is a very powerful one, despite seemingly simple.

I've often had a difficult choice on the river and I find this one lesson will be very helpful in this regard. No more 'Oh my God, they've just made their xxx, should I bet anyway or check/call/fold?', or 'Shit I missed all my 15 outs! Now what?' lol - Now at least I have a much better and more logical approach to dealing with the river "WWHD?" :laugh:

"Are there better hands that will fold or worse that will call?" is a MUCH better question to ask myself - can't wait to try it out!

Definitely a powerful one! Haha yes I definitely know what you mean on that river thought process, we've all been there in the heat of the moment

jeanpierre1279 said:
I really liked the thoughts on how to bet on the river because I always thought about my hand (I know it's a mistake), but what is right is what the opponent can have hands or what he demonstrated during the flop, turn or river?

I know that it is still very difficult for me to call bluffs or worse hands outside the standard of betting because I still don't know if the villain played a slow game or really has nothing, let's say I'm still in the dangerous percentage of 60% of hits.

Improving the villain's range is necessary to make the right decision in the end.

About the concept of the worst hands to call, I really improved my game a lot when I started using it, but about the worst hands folding didn't. In games where I always play better hands, I payed but I noticed that this is directly linked to the villain's style and if his stack covers me.

I think with a better stack and showing (at least for the table) that you really play good hands I think you will have more productivity on the river.

Go based on what they've demonstrated through their betting patterns and tendencies. Sticking with that hand reading / ranging process will give you the best results!

redboy23 · May 10, 2020

Hello CCers,

This topic is very important and I like the use of the question, it is simple but an effective self-checking mechanism.

"If I bet or raise here, what better hands will fold or what worse hands will call?"

Thinking about you own thought process and looking at things from the villain's perspective is quite important and can have you sell a bluff or get the maximum value from villain.

Response to video question:

As played I would check the river, since there are three villains and I believe that better hands will not fold and worse hands that have not connected with the board should fold to any bet.

Hero should hope for a miracle here and understand that with so many villains in the hand, this increases the odds that someone caught bottom or middle pair and are sitting tight in wait for a bluff.

Very good food for thought here. Nice chapter.

freddydr87 · May 10, 2020

The river is the street in were we win or louse the most off our money,because the pot is generally big by this stage, and that is the key question,wish beater hands will fold and wish worse hand will call,is there any worse hand(some time the range off the vilain in river dont his booton hands he has foldem allready).
I have to manny dificulties by stracting value in river,do i bet and get paid by worse hands,or do a check to let the vilains missdraws bluff me? i found it very hard to read,

Peptobylsma · May 10, 2020

Hi guys,

First, thanks for the guide. So far, I've found it really helpful and informative.

I was wondering if you might be able to elaborate on the statement about "...We think we have the worst hand and want the better hand to fold, or we have the best hand and want the worse hand to call. If neither of these apply, you should be checking, calling, or folding." Specifically, I'm a little confused about the second answer about shoving with K9 - why would we shove if we think we have the best hand with top pair, when above it says we should want a worse hand to call us? Or am I incorrectly assuming that we are thinking we have the best hand with K9 in this situation?

Sorry if this question is confusing. I'm really kind of having a hard time wrapping my head around this chapter.

Peptobylsma · May 11, 2020

Day 12

Disregard my above question. I think I have it.

Phoenix Wright · May 12, 2020

Another solid lesson today. I knew about protection betting, but I learned the connotationally-speaking difference between this and an equity Denial Bet. I thought they were always the same thing, but now I know that Equity Denial Betting is more to get "any two random cards" to fold (since they still have decent equity against us) and protection betting is more guarding against specifics (like draws or overcards).

karmakoumas · May 15, 2020

Thank you for these video.
i really appreciate the question i learn to ask myself before betting in the river.
i think it's a question tool to win more when you can and don't waste money too.

very exciting to apply what i learn in every day course :cheers:

Collin Moshman · May 18, 2020

freddydr87 said:
The river is the street in were we win or louse the most off our money,because the pot is generally big by this stage, and that is the key question,wish beater hands will fold and wish worse hand will call,is there any worse hand(some time the range off the vilain in river dont his booton hands he has foldem allready).
I have to manny dificulties by stracting value in river,do i bet and get paid by worse hands,or do a check to let the vilains missdraws bluff me? i found it very hard to read,

It's difficult to know the answer to this for sure! Usually you want to just bet for value, but be a lot more inclined to check + induce bluffs if there are many missed draws.

Phoenix Wright said:
Another solid lesson today. I knew about protection betting, but I learned the connotationally-speaking difference between this and an Equity Denial Bet. I thought they were always the same thing, but now I know that Equity Denial Betting is more to get "any two random cards" to fold (since they still have decent equity against us) and protection betting is more guarding against specifics (like draws or overcards).

Yes exactly Phoenix, well said!

Popescu97 · May 27, 2020

The day 12 of this course it s about river betting witch for me and my poker lessons it s very important,because in the river you lose some bankroll and your management it s down.I really appeciate this course and you must be cautious for betting in the river .Thanks Cardschat and Kollin& Katie for this course,I wait another course in the future

ronn6583 · May 28, 2020

This concept makes the game on the river more thoughtful. As practice shows, when no one has a hit, the bank will be taken by the one who makes the first bet.
Quiz:
Board: 9d8hJs4h9c
We determine the best hands - 4x; 8x; Jx; 9x; 22+; 710; 10Q; AK.
Question: Which of the listed hands will fold if there is a bet in the pot size?
Based on the passive draw, none of the listed hands will fold, i.e. there is no fold equity.
If the raise size is 4 pots –610 chips, then they will probably fold: 4x; 8x; 22; 33; 55-77; 1010.
Given that this is the beginning of the tournament and only 30 chips have been invested in the bank, this risk will not be justified. Therefore, you should not bet so that the best hands are discarded.
We identify the possible worst hands: Qx, Kx, Aх, excluding the best hands listed above.
Which of the worst hands will call a bet of 2/3 pot or 100 chips?
Most likely only hands with Ax and QK.
Therefore, it is not advisable to bet to get called from the worst hand.
Therefore, it is better to play here through the check.

VolJir · Jun 1, 2020

I have two questions about todays video:

1. At minute 9:37, the hand where we have a set of 9 and the A hits the river. How would you like a check instead of value betting ourself? I think most of the times he bets if he holds an A anyway and that way we could also induce a bluff and simple check-raise the river.

2. At the last hand, you said that you would Raise to 200 vs two limpers (we are in the SB, Blinds are 15/30). I thought that to be surprisingly big and would rather raise to maximal 135 or 150. What is the purpose to bet that big?

PS: Really enjoyed these videos and actually made an account here because of them, keep them coming!

Collin Moshman · Jun 1, 2020

VolJir said:
I have two questions about todays video:

1. At minute 9:37, the hand where we have a set of 9 and the A hits the river. How would you like a check instead of value betting ourself? I think most of the times he bets if he holds an A anyway and that way we could also induce a bluff and simple check-raise the river.

2. At the last hand, you said that you would Raise to 200 vs two limpers (we are in the SB, Blinds are 15/30). I thought that to be surprisingly big and would rather raise to maximal 135 or 150. What is the purpose to bet that big?

PS: Really enjoyed these videos and actually made an account here because of them, keep them coming!

Glad to hear that, thanks Voljir!

1. If he has an ace, the problem is that a lot of players will shut down with 4 to a straight on board even though it's unlikely we hold a 3. So it's usually better to value bet ourselves instead of giving him the opportunity to check back. Against some players though, like very aggro opponents, checking is the best play.

2. I think that 135 would be great sizing with position. Out of position, we need to raise larger to give our opponents worse odds to call and play against us when they'll have position post-flop. With that said, you're right that 200 is on the big side and 150 would be good too. I wouldn't go smaller than that in this spot again just because we're OOP.

Great questions, thanks for posting.

ammje · Jun 6, 2020

Excellent article, many times, you have to turn your hand into a bluff in order to win the hand, and you have to know when to bluff, this article has helped me a lot.

I don't totally agree with this (Collin says that all river bets or raises are fundamentally value bets or bluffs.), Many players who don't know how to play sometimes make crazy river bets, they practically turn their value hand into a bluff, so It is difficult to play against these types of players.

I remember a hand. BB600, I was at BB with A6o, a limp from utg, all the other fold players.
The flop was 838, turn 3, and river 6, on the flop and turn was check, check, in the pot there were about 2000 chips.
I decide to check on the river, and the villain bets 3000 chips, I thought he was bluffing, and I call, but the villain shows A8o.

I was surprised by the size of his bet, I would think that a good player wants to get value out of his hand, but he practically turned his hand into a bluff.

Collin Moshman · Jun 9, 2020

ammje said:
Excellent article, many times, you have to turn your hand into a bluff in order to win the hand, and you have to know when to bluff, this article has helped me a lot.

I don't totally agree with this (Collin says that all river bets or raises are fundamentally value bets or bluffs.), Many players who don't know how to play sometimes make crazy river bets, they practically turn their value hand into a bluff, so It is difficult to play against these types of players.

I remember a hand. BB600, I was at BB with A6o, a limp from utg, all the other fold players.
The flop was 838, turn 3, and river 6, on the flop and turn was check, check, in the pot there were about 2000 chips.
I decide to check on the river, and the villain bets 3000 chips, I thought he was bluffing, and I call, but the villain shows A8o.
I was surprised by the size of his bet, I would think that a good player wants to get value out of his hand, but he practically turned his hand into a bluff.

There are some more obscure reasons to bet or raise the river. For example, a player bets multi-way, and you raise to knock out the third player and get heads-up against the initial bettor. But in the vast majority of situations, river bets or raises should be for value or to bluff.

With that said, your opponents can have any reason for betting/raising the river: Because it's fun, they're showing off for a friend who's sitting next to them, or just without giving it much thought at all.

So there's definitely a distinction between correct/sound play and what you can expect a lot of players to do in a good game that's worth playing

makisaa · Jun 15, 2020

After the efforts of the previous streets the final result appears! It is the river, a victory or a defeat!

redboy23 · Jun 15, 2020

Hello CCers,

I am a little worried these days with the high frequency of talking to myself. But I do like the results of many of my decisions when I do ask myself the important question on the river;

Which worst hand will call me?
Which better hand I can get to fold?

These questions really help me to think critically to get the right bet sizing or the big laydown in some situations. I try not to take too long to get my thoughts together and it really helps if I think ahead. Many times, I think my opponents go with the flow of the game and do not stop to review the action in many spots and this works out in my favour more often than not.

Truth be told, I get a bit too much pleasure from getting villain to fold instead of enticing the call of a small bet size on the river. This is an area of my game that I need to improve. I have seen many players happily collect 1 BB on the river holding the nuts, instead of scaring their opponents away with a shove or a huge pot bet. This is something I should incorporate in my game and tournaments as well.

Katie Dozier · Jun 16, 2020

redboy23 said:
Hello CCers,

I am a little worried these days with the high frequency of talking to myself. But I do like the results of many of my decisions when I do ask myself the important question on the river;

Which worst hand will call me?
Which better hand I can get to fold?

These questions really help me to think critically to get the right bet sizing or the big laydown in some situations. I try not to take too long to get my thoughts together and it really helps if I think ahead. Many times, I think my opponents go with the flow of the game and do not stop to review the action in many spots and this works out in my favour more often than not.

Truth be told, I get a bit too much pleasure from getting villain to fold instead of enticing the call of a small bet size on the river. This is an area of my game that I need to improve. I have seen many players happily collect 1 BB on the river holding the nuts, instead of scaring their opponents away with a shove or a huge pot bet. This is something I should incorporate in my game and tournaments as well.

I'm so glad to hear you're talking to yourself like this!

Even though it may make us feel slightly crazy lol, it is so important to do. Before long you'll be automatically thinking about these questions at the correct moment without even having to vocalize them. It will feel great when one day you realize you're doing all of it without manually having to process it.

Well done, redboy!

BentleyBoy · Jun 20, 2020

Another great day on the training course. In line with the comments of RedBoy above, the idea of asking yourself these questions is important, but more importantly providing a response to the questions which shows that you have thought through the possibilities and come to an informed decision. Speaking to yourself is a good thing in these situations and helps you to perfect your game.

Thanks

River Betting (Day 12 Course Discussion)

Debi

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Polytarp

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PsychoVas

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Collin Moshman

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Luvart

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cferdi

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jeanpierre1279

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Collin Moshman

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redboy23

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freddydr87

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Peptobylsma

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Phoenix Wright

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karmakoumas

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Collin Moshman

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ronn6583

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VolJir

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Collin Moshman

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ammje

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