Words are binding

I was playing at the casino once and my friend was in a hand with a one other player. The Player was reaching for chips to raise and my friend said, "Whatever you raise I'm calling." The guy raised and my friend tried to fold but the dealer said he had to call, because his statement was binding. I can understand when someone checks in dark, but my friend wasn't talking to the dealer, he was talking to the player. It just seemed a little extreme to me. Another reason to tip your dealer well.

Yeah exactly, he wasnt talking to the dealer.

It doesnt matter, the fact that he said he will call any raise, means he MUST call any raise. Why would he say that if he wasnt willing to call? Angleshooters are scum.

my father always told me " Don't volunteer information" and he also told me " If your going to do something wrong, do it by yourself. the others will always rat on you".

100% standard - verbal declarations are binding, even out of turn, and the amount you've tipped the dealer over the night shouldn't make any difference.

His statement was, in my opinon, a move against the other player. No different than a re raise or all in push. He just made it out of position in order gain information or force a fold. That is why the verbal commitment is binding. Its not extreme, its the rules of poker.

Good points everyone. I agree with you MONO... Angleshooters are scum.

Verbal actions are binding in live games

so if you are the BB, and all the cards have just been dealt, and you say..."if anyone raises my big blind, im allin"..and someone raises your blind, then you have verbally declared that you are allin??

youzeaflea22 said:

I was playing at the casino once and my friend was in a hand with a one other player. The Player was reaching for chips to raise and my friend said, "Whatever you raise I'm calling." The guy raised and my friend tried to fold but the dealer said he had to call, because his statement was binding. I can understand when someone checks in dark, but my friend wasn't talking to the dealer, he was talking to the player. It just seemed a little extreme to me. Another reason to tip your dealer well.

Click to expand...

He basically playe dout of turn, which is legal, you usually get a wanrign for it, but whatever play you made out of turn is binding. IT doens't mater if your friend threw in chips, or said I'm all in. A verbal declaration of action is binding in live play.

I witnessed something very similar to your story before in live play, and the player who made the declaration was forced to follow it.

~H

ya ive heard the same thing few times in casino and dealer did nothing i dont know ovs the dealer was haven a problem with your buddy or something i mean what if you say im allin next hand blind and your in first position on table and you fold ? then what can the dealer do nothing ?

clubfoot said:

that was wrong ive heard players say im all in next hand many times and didnt... i think the dealer was grumpy. this should not have been binding

Click to expand...

The difference between the two is that he said that while the hand was in play. It should absolutely be binding. Sometimes I've seen it where they will leave it up to the players whether or not they want to hold the person to it.

daxter70 said:

so if you are the BB, and all the cards have just been dealt, and you say..."if anyone raises my big blind, im allin"..and someone raises your blind, then you have verbally declared that you are allin??

Click to expand...

This is an interesting question. I would like to see what OzExorcist (or AG for that matter) have to say about this.

daxter70 said:

so if you are the BB, and all the cards have just been dealt, and you say..."if anyone raises my big blind, im allin"..and someone raises your blind, then you have verbally declared that you are allin??

Click to expand...

As JQ identified above, it's the bolded part above that's important - it means you're making the announcement during a hand that's in play.

Effectively, this is the same as the situation in the OP: you're verbally declaring a specific action, just out of turn. You're also making it to the entire table instead of just one player. When the action reaches you, you can be bound by your verbal declaration.

You'd have more latitude if you said "Don't raise my big blind, I'll defend it" because what specifically does "defend" mean? You haven't said you'll call any raise, you haven't said you'll go all in if you get raised, you've just made a vague empty threat and I don't think you could get held to any action on that basis.

Alternatively, if you say it between hands I don't believe you'll be held to your word either because there's no specific hand happening at the time to apply the declaration to. I think - I'm not actually certain on that one. Saying "I'm the big blind next hand and I'm all in preflop if anyone raises me" before the cards are dealt would likely give a floor manager a massive headache if anyone tried to hold you to it. I don't think you can be, but I'm not certain either, so to be safe just don't do it.

JQ also makes a good point, this will usually only be an issue if the other player(s) in the hand want to hold the person that's made the declaration to their word (in a cash game, at any rate - in a tournament where rules are observed and enforced more strictly, they may be held to their word just on principle).

In a cash game the casino is unlikely to get involved if the players in the hand agree to let the person off and get on with the game, or they make some other kind of deal (like Guy Laliberate letting Benyamine take back a big chunk of his all in bet on HSP when it became apparent he was crushed). They'll only take an interest if someone insists on the verbal declaration being binding and the player refuses to perform the action.

Interestingly, I've read stories where this has happened, the player has refused to hand over the money and the casino hasn't been able to force him to do so. They have, however, given him an alternative: pay your bet, or get thrown out and banned from the casino for life.

The take home lesson from all this really is: don't make stupid empty threats out of turn. If you don't make the statements to begin with, you'll never have a problem.

With table talk and your involved in the pot and u make statements about raises or chip counts and so on ,,, ESPECIALLY in a casino, that is classed as a bet.
I know your friend was trying to BUY the pot with talk,,, tried to bluff whom ever was still in the pot that he CLAIMED he had the nuts or the best hand possible.
What the dealer did was correct you cant talk about raises as a part of table talk if you dont intend on doing so,,,
What i am guessing is your friend paid a very costly mistake and will never do it again!!

I had thought that acting out of turn was non-binding, including verbal declarations. Don't play much live though and never speak while I'm in a hand.

Player: If it's dark outside, I'm all in. (during hand)


-Dealer: ???

whole lotta grey there if you ask me....IMO

for OP..in the situation your friend was in, did he ck to the bettor, or did he bet, or was he awaiting action from the bettor for first bet on river.

if he had not bet, then technically the bettor was only betting into the pot and not raising any bet.

like i said..whole lotta GREY!!

vanquish said:

Player: If it's dark outside, I'm all in. (during hand)

-Dealer: ???

Click to expand...

Dealer: Dammit, why's this always have to happen on my shift?!?

Daxter - if you're the player making the statement, then there really isn't any grey area: you can be held to your declaration, so don't say it unless you mean it.

I know a guy who was down to the last 20-30 players in a wsop event. One player was pushing him around, stealing his big blind, and coming over the top of all of his raises.

So the guy makes a move pre-flop and my friend says something like, "You re-raise me again?! I should put you all-in..."

In a flash the bully says, "I call".

T Director said it was binding.

That was the story anyway. My friend said the hand would probably be televised so some of you might have seen it.