why is online poker harder than live poker?

LombardiStix said:

Anyway... I've seen the argument that online is harder because you can't "see" tells etc.

Click to expand...

That would be a stupid argument indeed. Online is harder because the regular players who play online are much much much stronger than their live counterparts. Partly because they are young math wizards, and partly because they have seen a gazillion more hands than the live regs.

Two different ways of approaching this:

1) What type of game has more difficult players at similar buy-in levels?

2) What type of game would be more difficult if you assumed that you are facing equally talented players at either level?

LombardiStix said:

The game is no way near the same game. That's not to say that one can't have success in both arenas. However, to say that online is harder than live is a joke. The skill and discipline it takes to maintain focus at a live poker table is much harder than an online game which is perfect for the millennials who have the attention span of a flea... lol. However, not only do you have to maintain focus to be "really" successful live, but you must also have a memory that does all the things online "pros" HUD does. You also have to have control over your own body in order to keep from giving away information. IMO the true stud live player is a more complete player, but that is also very debatable. The reason there is a debate is because of the extreme differences in the game live vs. online. Anyway... I've seen the argument that online is harder because you can't "see" tells etc. It is easier because the lack of visual tells that most people don't know how to read because visual tells are extremely varied and complex... while online betting tells are much more simple. Much less variance... or easier.

Stix

Click to expand...

Sorry but your BOLDLY wrong.

BelgoSuisse said:

That would be a stupid argument indeed. Online is harder because the regular players who play online are much much much stronger than their live counterparts. Partly because they are young math wizards, and partly because they have seen a gazillion more hands than the live regs.

Click to expand...

Most of your arguments seem to be strongly relational to the sheer volume of online players and so the cream has risen to the top. Is the live game not steeped in math with many math experts doing well? Why can't a simple math wizard be as successful live?... because live poker REQUIRES a combination of both to be successful at the TOP LEVELS. I would love to hear more responses beyond "you are wrong" .

STix

LombardiStix said:

Most of your arguments seem to be strongly relational to the sheer volume of online players and so the cream has risen to the top. Is the live game not steeped in math with many math experts doing well? Why can't a simple math wizard be as successful live?... because live poker REQUIRES a combination of both to be successful at the TOP LEVELS. I would love to hear more responses beyond "you are wrong" .

STix

Click to expand...

Post #99

LombardiStix said:

Why can't a simple math wizard be as successful live?...

Click to expand...

They are. All the online regs who are proven winners at 100nl+ online are ridiculously successful whenever they play live. The reason they play mostly online is that it's more convenient and it's also easier to play a higher volume of hands online, and that means variance is less of a factor and skill prevails faster.

i think the difference is that when you are at a casino playing live you get to talk to other people without typing. typing can take away from the game i think. the 1 most positive thing about online is you can get up and do something as to if you get up your hand will be mucked as soon as the cards are dealt. i like live better but when you are home your only choice in online

BelgoSuisse said:

They are. All the online regs who are proven winners at 100nl+ online are ridiculously successful whenever they play live. The reason they play mostly online is that it's more convenient and it's also easier to play a higher volume of hands online, and that means variance is less of a factor and skill prevails faster.

Click to expand...

I was being semi-sarcastic. I was making the point that an online reg can be successful live, but it is not automatic. You would go as far as to say "all" of them are? The group you are referencing is a very small group of individuals in the entire world. There is a larger "world" of online players if you will so there will be more "successful" players as well. This would also cause the "ultra-successful" online players to be incredible because of the sheer volume of people they prevail over. The feat is not harder per say than being the incredible elite in live poker, it is different.

IcyBlueAce said:

In any poker article or site that talks about online play vs. live play will tell you online play is way tougher vs live play.

A few reasons:
-The lowest stake is $1/$2 NL live, where as to online the lowest stake you can play is 1c/2c NL.

-Casinos are filled with drunks and gamblers wanting to have a good time, not caring if they bank a profit or not.

-Lots of people use all kinds of resources/programs online to pretty much know how to play you.

-In live play people get more tempted to play bad hands due to the simple reason that you can't multi-table and the hand rate per hour is about 50% less.

Those are just a few reasons, there are many others such as people simply do not know how to play correctly. The most popular CASINO in FL in my location is Hard Rock, when I play poker there, you always get 5+ people playing in a hand preflop which is ridiculous. A 3bet to them is like $20-$30..

Maybe the people you play live with are just awesome players, but generally its known that $1/$2 live is just like 1c/2c online (sometimes a little better).

Click to expand...

I'll do my best to explain my opinion on each of these points.

Stakes-The difference in stakes is reflective of the community of live poker players as compared to the community of OL players. This simply shows that it is not economically possible to run 1c/2c games live. However it doesn't add to any argument.

Online tables are filled with plenty of drunks and morons throwing their chips in without reason or rhyme and like the casinos this is more evident on the weekend?

As far as the "resources" people use online. This is evidence against your argument. A player doesn't have to "think" as much to be an above average online player. They just follow patterns of strategy according to what kind of player they are going against in their HUD.

In live play people more tempted to play bad hands. That just changes the game, it doesn't make it easier per say or harder. If anything it is harder to put players on a hand which makes the game more difficult.


I'm not saying the average live player is better than the average online player. I'm saying to be truly successful as a live player is harder. I do understand some contrary points and I apologize for not being able to respond quickly (I have to wait 24 hours to post 7 posts.... )


Stix

Live reads are just ridiculously important.

It doesn't take great reading skills to garner incredibly important information, and people will willingly give up quite a bit. There are not only the Mike Caro-type tells, but you will realize who is down to their last $200 and doesn't want to get busted, or who is stuck $1,500 and just wants to gamboool it up.

People show their cards a lot more live for no particular reason.

Live poker is very much a social game to a lot of people, and I admit that I don't always take the most +EV lines against certain people...but if you use this ruthlessly you can get a big advantage, too. you can do things such as negate positional disadvantages by talking to them. You can find out who is or isn't willing to stack pre with JJ or AK and who's going all-in with A-high or any pair.

People are much more impatient in live games...on the Internet, people are playing multiple tables or surfing the Net or watching TV. In live games, people get frustrated very quickly if they don't get a hand for two hours, which is very very common. The same guy who might fold KQs to a $2 reraise online is now putting in $75 preflop with it in a live game.

It isn't as easy to read people without seeing their faces. Watching how they play on the computer isn't close to the same as in person. However, playing at home in the comfort of my own home is sure nice.

FTP_TheNuts said:

Its not

Poker is Poker, if anything online is easier.

Online: So much more easy to access, so many more idiots playing, so many more tournaments you can play.

This is a pretty dumb statement in OP imo.

Click to expand...

I disagree in a big way. Of course it depends upon what limite you're playing. An example... say you're a winning player 'live' at $5/$10.. I would predict you'd go busto in no time if you tried to play the same limits online. (same goes for $100-$200 buyin MTTs... online 'FAR BETTER' players!!!!! w/o question)

If you know how to read a persons body language and facial expressions you got a big advantage live. When we speak its something like 7% is the actual words, the rest is voice tone and body language, so there is definately reactions to pick up on live.

HipHopStoner said:

Yea... I destroy all that oppose me live.. yet online I run into people that end up making me feel like I play like shit when really it's their horrible play that affects my game. Dealing with soo many donks at once is much harder then dealing with a few.

Click to expand...

Maybe it's your play but you're not skilled/experienced enough to realize it?? Just sayin'.... & not meaning to be a dick BUT this ^ is very common.

Poker Orifice said:

I disagree in a big way. Of course it depends upon what limite you're playing. An example... say you're a winning player 'live' at $5/$10.. I would predict you'd go busto in no time if you tried to play the same limits online. (same goes for $100-$200 buyin MTTs... online 'FAR BETTER' players!!!!! w/o question)

Click to expand...

+1

Sadly many people for what ever reason still seem to wanna disagree.

I guess the people who say live is harder than online go to casinos that are not that popular at all, in that case I'm sure you'd see much better players there so that argument is legit. (but I still stand by online is tougher than live)

But in populated areas with big and popular casinos like where I live (Florida) and in Vegas, then you get loads more fish and in this case live is actually wayyy easier than online.

I think the hard part with live with semi good players or total drunks is your variance will be crazy as hell.

Just my opinion of course.

IcyBlueAce said:

+1

Sadly many people for what ever reason still seem to wanna disagree.

Click to expand...

I responded to the points you made. I am not trying to be disrespectful. I understand most of your points and agree that some of them are valid, but just wanted to see if you wanted to continue the discourse.

Stix

LombardiStix said:

I responded to the points you made. I am not trying to be disrespectful. I understand most of your points and agree that some of them are valid, but just wanted to see if you wanted to continue the discourse.

Stix

Click to expand...

The only response I can really give you goes back to my original response.

I can agree in some cases your sorta right, but for popular casinos vs. online -- your just dead wrong and I don't know what else I can say that I haven't already.

online is harder because you play different people all the time... In person you play with the same 10-30 people over and over again and get a feel for how they play. You find a style that works agaisnt your usual competition and you never have to switch up. Online you are seeing 8 new faces every time you sit down at the tables. You have to pay a lot more attention and be willing ot adjust you play every time you sit down....if you played the same 8 people online every day it would be easier than in person cause your dealt soo many more hands / hour

Playing live causes you to focus entirely on the 1 game your in. When it`s your hand in a live game your doing nothing else but playing that hand. In the on-line world I think players are focusing on alot of diff things as well as that hand. Like the other games there in at the same time. This causes alot of bad play. They sometimes make quicker decisions or impulse plays wich may come across as being harder.

I was talking to a winning live regular the other day. He wend down to foxwoods and told me the tournament he plays in didn't have too many entering so he played SNGs instead. I told him I've been playing a lot of SNGs and mentioned ICM at some point in the conversation. To which he responded "what's ICM"?. He was a winning tournament player for all of 2009 too.

It takes time to be able to read your opponent when not live. You have to get a feel through his/her betting pattern, the hands they play, etc. No scratching, coughing other things that may give them away. At low tables and free rolls, many disagree with me on this, you have lots of never folds - very difficult to beat them all. Good players will generally fold if they think that they can't win the hand in some way.

online poker is harder then live poker because the best players can sit on multiple tables.

You enter a live card room. There is 6 games of 5/10 games going. You look at 1 table and see that it is packed full of great players. You wouldn't sit because it isn't a good lineup so you look at the other 5 games.

Online you see 6 5/10 games going. You look at 1 table and see that is packed full of great player. You look over at the other tables and see that they are seated there as well. Regardless of where you sit, you will have to play against them.

Playing live, you will face easier competition because you can only play on one table at a time.

yeah i agree distractions at home but i think live is easier than online because online u have donkeys that play rubbish cause if they lose they can save face and disapear whereas in casino u have to flip your cards and will look a bit silly if everyone sees u playin like a fool whereas online u wouldnt cause u could just sit down at a different table

and yeah fighter thats a good point actually u can multi table so no matter where u go will be the same good players

You can't make visual reads

sticky fingers

I can't s top wacking it. Its really putting a crap in my online poker. Did you know that the inter rnet has porn. WOW!!!

I it took me 17 minutes to type this post.:stupid: :stupid: