Why cash games are better for one's mental health.

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Rational Madman

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If you believe that every decision you make results in either profit or loss, you begin to be happier overall.

Let me explain something; if you need 'risk' to get a thrill then you are mentally unhealthy in the first place. The risk should cause you anxiety and unhappiness, the profit should be what gives you the joy.

You need to enjoy good folds as much as good wins and this is why when people say 'don't try to not lose money try to gain as much as you can' I always say it's one dimensional thinking.

You need to thoroughly enjoy every moment of the game where your losses were mitigated and/or your gains were maximised (if you made a tight player fold a better hand at the same time as getting a looser player to pay you off, this is both at the same time which is why it's and/or not just 'or').

For me, this also why I don't believe in multi-tabling more than 5 tables. You need a momentary pause to literally FEEL the joy or pain of a good or bad move.

For me, tournaments teach you to not enjoy a series of good moves unless you end up making it to ITM at the very least, so all the time you spent playing well up until your cooler hand or bad beat amount to zero joy and just unhappiness. Consequently, you also end up unable to fully suffer through your bad moves as if it ends up with you winning the tournament and even worse if it it fairly certain that without that bad overbet you did that you'd have never got near first place, then you end up enjoying what you should be feeling unhappiness towards and learn to avoid doing.

Tournaments put you in many, many situations where you end up thinking 'even though this is a dumb move, it may be the only way I survive' whereas in cash games you always can afford ot leak some blinds if it's irrational to engage the opponent in that scenario (especially if your BRM is good).

Less anxiety, more direct emotion-to-result correlation and most importantly the ability to freely risk losing chips early on in your session if the situation seems right to profit you.

I have genuinely tried tournament grinding and it simply is terrible for my mental health. Makes me paranoid and severely unhappy overall as I feel my profit is far less to do with my actions and far more to do with getting lucky later on rather than earlier on in the tournaments (this is a fact not an opinion whether you believe in luck or not).
 
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Nice post. I agree.

Tournaments are ****ing hurendous. I don't know how anybody can sit and grind these all day everyday for a living.

A good tournament player had a very good idea of what decisions they need to make for these decisions to be a profitbale. I have played tournaments where I felt like I was the best tournament player in the world, for example i finished 5th in micro millions 20k and I felt like I was Fedor holz. Then I realised when I reviewed the tourney, I literally ran super hot and got 'lucky' numerous times. Don't get me wrong, I know how to play tournaments, but with cash games your decisions are more deliberate and thought out. Even when you take a tough beat, you know you can spin it around and regain your losses by simply playing your A game. Tournaments crush your soul in this sense, because you can go 10,20,30 even more without cashing once, and it hurts, because you think you will Never cash. In turn, that ruins your confidence, destroys your morale, takes the fun out of the game completely, and crush's your soul.

I used to 12 table cash full ring. After about 80,000 I had a break even stretch of around 30,000 hands. I started to review this period and soon realised I wasn't making optimal decisions anymore. I was just simply playing like retarded zombie bot. I moved back down to 6 and my results have risen again. I agree with you that 5-6-7 tables is around optimal imho. Its all about figuring out what works best for you as an individual and what makes everything balance out.
 
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Rational Madman

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Nice post. I agree.

Tournaments are ****ing hurendous. I don't know how anybody can sit and grind these all day everyday for a living.

A good tournament player had a very good idea of what decisions they need to make for these decisions to be a profitbale. I have played tournaments where I felt like I was the best tournament player in the world, for example i finished 5th in micro millions 20k and I felt like I was Fedor holz. Then I realised when I reviewed the tourney, I literally ran super hot and got 'lucky' numerous times. Don't get me wrong, I know how to play tournaments, but with cash games your decisions are more deliberate and thought out. Even when you take a tough beat, you know you can spin it around and regain your losses by simply playing your A game. Tournaments crush your soul in this sense, because you can go 10,20,30 even more without cashing once, and it hurts, because you think you will Never cash. In turn, that ruins your confidence, destroys your morale, takes the fun out of the game completely, and crush's your soul.

I used to 12 table cash full ring. After about 80,000 I had a break even stretch of around 30,000 hands. I started to review this period and soon realised I wasn't making optimal decisions anymore. I was just simply playing like retarded zombie bot. I moved back down to 6 and my results have risen again. I agree with you that 5-6-7 tables is around optimal imho. Its all about figuring out what works best for you as an individual and what makes everything balance out.
I couldn't cope with 6 personally. I don't even cope with 5 my maximum is 3 I have found my brain can only handle that many simultaneous decisions within the given time of a turn.

If I play 4 or more I will literally miss AQ or something on one of the tables at times.

I agree very much when you say this: Don't get me wrong, I know how to play tournaments, but with cash games your decisions are more deliberate and thought out. Even when you take a tough beat, you know you can spin it around and regain your losses by simply playing your A game.

This is very important for poker players to understand.
 
wilpinsi

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I would love to play cash, but every time I enter this platform, I leave negative my bankroll, I believe it is the wrong way I am approaching this game, I realize that a lot of players like cash, I have to study this game more, for who know someday to have a good comeback
 
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Totally agree with all the above-mentioned. But I think that 2-3 tournaments a week is not harmful. By the same luck will be on our side
 
wuffeli

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This is one heck of a quality post. In few sentences: tournaments are basically struggling between life and death, while in cash games you have freedom of choice in your every single action. It is up to the player which he prefers, I really have to admit that tournaments can have exciting life-like, savagish vibe when you start think about it.
Edit: "Survival of the fittest" was the phrase I was looking for. From psychological aspect, you can turn that into nice mental boost. ;)
 
bmw13

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I was a lot of time close to hitting big in tournaments and I received a brutal punishment ... it's not easy to take it believe me ... and right now I aboard the game differently ... just playing cash online and the rest live tournaments... just to defend my head because you need it day by day also...
 
RidersFan

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This is just another ‘cash games are better that tournaments’ post. There are a lot words but very little content.
 
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This is just another ‘cash games are better that tournaments’ post. There are a lot words but very little content.
The samurai is better and truer warrior than the ninja even if the ninja defeats them. If you begin to understand that there is something truly 'better' about one type of something than another than you begin to evolve.

you can go your whole life believing CG = T but CG > T sorry it's the damn truth.
 
Vfranks

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I'm the same way where I get robotic if I play too many tables. I can play more than 4, but it's too taxing for me and feel I miss opportunities, so i don't. I don't have an online roll right now, but if i were going to try to play seriously it would be in cash games.
 
AshK44

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I think a cash game is fun. Being better for your mental health has some validity but there is nothing wrong with tournament poker. It’s like going for a 2km (cash game) run or a marathon (tournament)...there are many phases to the marathon and the cash game but the cash game gives quicker results. The tournament can also been seen as a test to your mental stamina. It all boils down to how you like to play and where your skills are. There is no right or wrong answer here. Only preferences and feelings. Good discussion all. I like this topic.
 
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Rational Madman

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I think a cash game is fun. Being better for your mental health has some validity but there is nothing wrong with tournament poker. It’s like going for a 2km (cash game) run or a marathon (tournament)...there are many phases to the marathon and the cash game but the cash game gives quicker results. The tournament can also been seen as a test to your mental stamina. It all boils down to how you like to play and where your skills are. There is no right or wrong answer here. Only preferences and feelings. Good discussion all. I like this topic.
In a marathon, the degree of known criteria (lactic acid building in the muscles, oxygen intake, hydration, diet etc) are all scientifica/mathematical informed things. the 'cards the deck has' which is the 0% informed part is probably only how strong your opponent's legs are and the semi-informed 'what is my opponent currently holding?' aspect is probably how windy it will be or how uneven the path you run will be and if your turns will involve having to jostle with an over-taker.

The degree of known is far more than with poker so unlike poker in a marathon your victory is far more down to you than a poker tournament where showdowns involve unknown aspects and can render all your effort to that point futile if you don't make ITM.
 
RidersFan

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The samurai is better and truer warrior than the ninja even if the ninja defeats them. If you begin to understand that there is something truly 'better' about one type of something than another than you begin to evolve.

you can go your whole life believing CG = T but CG > T sorry it's the damn truth.

I wasn’t going to reply but your attempt to be clever just shows that maybe you should be the one to open your mind and evolve the way you think. You maybe wondering what I’m referring to: Samurai aren’t better or worse than ninjas they are different types of warriors. They often worked together as ninjas could do things that the samurai code would not allow samurais to do. It’s a misconception that they were rivals, this is mostly likely due to films.

Weather cash or tournaments are better is opinion based and therefore subject. One can’t be objectively better than the other. You attempt to sway people to believing that cash games are better by presenting your opinion as objective truth.
 
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I wasn’t going to reply but your attempt to be clever just shows that maybe you should be the one to open your mind and evolve the way you think. You maybe wondering what I’m referring to: Samurai aren’t better or worse than ninjas they are different types of warriors. They often worked together as ninjas could do things that the samurai code would not allow samurais to do. It’s a misconception that they were rivals, this is mostly likely due to films.

Weather cash or tournaments are better is opinion based and therefore subject. One can’t be objectively better than the other. You attempt to sway people to believing that cash games are better by presenting your opinion as objective truth.
The Samurai fought EACH OTHER and were raw warriors to the bitter end.

The Ninja picked on politicians or weaker targets of any kind who couldn't even fight back even if they did detect the ninja(s) who sneaked up on them.

The ninja's core philosophy was that if there was someone stronger than you, you should do anything you can to make the fight as unfair as possible on the enemy and never ever take them head-on.

In contrast, the samurai's core philosophy was that if there was someone stronger than you, you should take that as the reason you need to become stronger and not call yourself a true samurai until you can confidently walk into that fight with them and believe you will win.

The ninja embraced their cowardice and the samurai embraced their ego. The ninja who won a fight with another ninja was inconsistently the one who had worked harder but consistently the one who had better tools or more intel on the other's fighting style to make it so they couldn't win regardless of effort.

The samurai who won a fight was the better fighter.
 
RidersFan

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The Samurai fought EACH OTHER and were raw warriors to the bitter end.

The Ninja picked on politicians or weaker targets of any kind who couldn't even fight back even if they did detect the ninja(s) who sneaked up on them.

The ninja's core philosophy was that if there was someone stronger than you, you should do anything you can to make the fight as unfair as possible on the enemy and never ever take them head-on.

In contrast, the samurai's core philosophy was that if there was someone stronger than you, you should take that as the reason you need to become stronger and not call yourself a true samurai until you can confidently walk into that fight with them and believe you will win.

The ninja embraced their cowardice and the samurai embraced their ego. The ninja who won a fight with another ninja was inconsistently the one who had worked harder but consistently the one who had better tools or more intel on the other's fighting style to make it so they couldn't win regardless of effort.

The samurai who won a fight was the better fighter.

Just wow. Samurai went raw warriors they were noble and highly trained. Of course they fought each other, all emperors in Japan had samurai. Ninjas were highly trained in espionage and sabotage which the Japanese Emperors knew were essential to war. To portray ninjas as cowards or unskilled is just ignorant. Instead of making up your own conclusions you should do a little research and read some history on samurai and ninjas.

Also, you completely missed the point. It wasn’t that you were incorrect, it was that you present you thoughts and opinions as fact and don’t take the time or energy to do actual research.
 
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Just wow. Samurai went raw warriors they were noble and highly trained. Of course they fought each other, all emperors in Japan had samurai. Ninjas were highly trained in espionage and sabotage which the Japanese Emperors knew were essential to war. To portray ninjas as cowards or unskilled is just ignorant. Instead of making up your own conclusions you should do a little research and read some history on samurai and ninjas.

Also, you completely missed the point. It wasn’t that you were incorrect, it was that you present you thoughts and opinions as fact and don’t take the time or energy to do actual research.
I do research. I know that tournament profit is possible, unwise and inconsistent but possible.

All your 'clashes' and well timed coinflips end up being 100% luck reliant. Coinflips are definitely inevitable and accepting this and going kamikaze in tournaments is very necessary to dominate them at all (if you dont accept coinflip moments when you hit ITM you will barley ever make the top placings)

If you truly need that to 'enjoy' poker like Negreanu says he does then go be a great tournament player. It's irrational and definitely not something someone with a remotely small bankroll should pursue but if you already got the bankroll to handle the downswings of tournament lifestyle then go be the greatest. :)

Don't cry to me when the coinflips end up screwing you over time after time.
 
RidersFan

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I do research. I know that tournament profit is possible, unwise and inconsistent but possible.

All your 'clashes' and well timed coinflips end up being 100% luck reliant. Coinflips are definitely inevitable and accepting this and going kamikaze in tournaments is very necessary to dominate them at all (if you dont accept coinflip moments when you hit ITM you will barley ever make the top placings)

If you truly need that to 'enjoy' poker like Negreanu says he does then go be a great tournament player. It's irrational and definitely not something someone with a remotely small bankroll should pursue but if you already got the bankroll to handle the downswings of tournament lifestyle then go be the greatest. :)

Don't cry to me when the coinflips end up screwing you over time after time.

This is exactly the problem, your need to believe that tournaments are worse and convince everyone your right. It’s not my clashes, I don’t think tournaments are better. I play both. Negreanu says you need to enjoy poker to be at the top of your game because of the time commitment it takes to compete with the best players in the world, this is true for both tournaments and cash games. I don’t cry when I lose coin flips, not even the ones I lose while playing cash. Coin flips can’t screw you over, over time they even themselves out.
 
AshK44

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This is quite the tangent...madman you have quite a thought process and seem very intelligent, but you should really take a other peoples opinions a little better. Why would you start a thread and then respond to everyone who comments in an unwelcoming way as if you are superior? I am always up for a good debate but you do go a little to far and very long winded. No offence but you seem to think you know it all. You do spark interesting conversation but it’s difficult to converse with someone that seems incapable of seeing any other perspective than his own. All that being said I agree when you look at my metaphor there is a few ‘literal’ discrepancies but it was a metaphor to communicate my opinion and point of view on cash games versus MTT’S. I guess that’s the nice thing about metaphors...they are up for interpretation.

Kind Regards and no disrespect....I just thought you might want another post on your thread to pick apart and throw facts around in an attempt to have the last word and feel superior to the rest of us on this forum.
 
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This is quite the tangent...madman you have quite a thought process and seem very intelligent, but you should really take a other peoples opinions a little better. Why would you start a thread and then respond to everyone who comments in an unwelcoming way as if you are superior? I am always up for a good debate but you do go a little to far and very long winded. No offence but you seem to think you know it all. You do spark interesting conversation but it’s difficult to converse with someone that seems incapable of seeing any other perspective than his own. All that being said I agree when you look at my metaphor there is a few ‘literal’ discrepancies but it was a metaphor to communicate my opinion and point of view on cash games versus MTT’S. I guess that’s the nice thing about metaphors...they are up for interpretation.

Kind Regards and no disrespect....I just thought you might want another post on your thread to pick apart and throw facts around in an attempt to have the last word and feel superior to the rest of us on this forum.
But we agree and you are a nice human being unlike some on here. ;)

From the start of my joining the forum to this post I never acted in a way that would turn a current ally of mine into an enemy only in a way that would make my enemies more aggravated or my allies more entertained.

I don't dislike you or disagree with you so this is a twofold reason to not debate with you.

I know you are saying that I am arrogant, and I agree entirely that I am arrogant and that I turn small conflicts into big ones but this is a forum and even the ones running it know that drama like this keeps masses who are perhaps not too technical in poker entertained and attracts others too.

Furthermore, my topics are always open to newbies to post and I fully give them opportunities to expand what they say with me without shutting them down in any sense.
 
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As somebody that sits here all day, every day playing tournaments, this was a great read and does make a lot of sense.

I tend to go through a routine of playing badly and sometimes unluckily at the start of the day and really getting stressed but in turn, it helps me find my game and during my tournaments later in the day, I'm so focussed, I end up playing too tight.

In my cash games, I do take every hand as it comes and play it differently because you're free to do so without worrying about how far your stack will take you.

I think I may just spend a little more time in cash for a while and see how I go.
 
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As somebody that sits here all day, every day playing tournaments, this was a great read and does make a lot of sense.

I tend to go through a routine of playing badly and sometimes unluckily at the start of the day and really getting stressed but in turn, it helps me find my game and during my tournaments later in the day, I'm so focussed, I end up playing too tight.

In my cash games, I do take every hand as it comes and play it differently because you're free to do so without worrying about how far your stack will take you.

I think I may just spend a little more time in cash for a while and see how I go.
Freedom is 100% a cash game benefit.

Freedom to walk away from a truly annoying player... Freedom to quit while you're ahead... Freedom to sit out a few hands not worrying if aces would have some while you sit out and calm after a tilting bad beat.

Freedom is the cash game's number one benefit over the MTT format.
 
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I agree that, yes, if you can't handle the downswings that come with MTTs, then it might not be the right game for you.

2 important points about MTTs that players should know:

-MTTs are super high variance. The deeper the field, the more variance.
-You will bust out of more MTTs than you cash in.

This doesn't necessarily mean you'll not profiting from them, but if you're looking at wins/losses on a per game basis, then you're going to lose every time. Take a look at any pro MTT player and I guarantee that they have busted out of more MTTs than they have cashed in.

Case in point, I have ~300 MTTs played on a site and have only cashed in ~50 of them. I've had stints where I go on 40 game down swings or I run even for 30+ games before my next big cash. However, I'm still profiting with a 123% ROI.

So, in terms of games cashed vs games busted, yeah...it's terrible, but profit wise, it's really good.

Another thing is, if you play micro-stakes like I do, you're going to run into even more variance because of the how bad players play. MTTs, especially micro-stakes, have some of the softest players out there. That's what makes them so easy to beat, but at the same time, it's not an easy task to do so.
 
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I agree that, yes, if you can't handle the downswings that come with MTTs, then it might not be the right game for you.

2 important points about MTTs that players should know:

-MTTs are super high variance. The deeper the field, the more variance.
-You will bust out of more MTTs than you cash in.

This doesn't necessarily mean you'll not profiting from them, but if you're looking at wins/losses on a per game basis, then you're going to lose every time. Take a look at any pro MTT player and I guarantee that they have busted out of more MTTs than they have cashed in.

Case in point, I have ~300 MTTs played on a site and have only cashed in ~50 of them. I've had stints where I go on 40 game down swings or I run even for 30+ games before my next big cash. However, I'm still profiting with a 123% ROI.

So, in terms of games cashed vs games busted, yeah...it's terrible, but profit wise, it's really good.

Another thing is, if you play micro-stakes like I do, you're going to run into even more variance because of the how bad players play. MTTs, especially micro-stakes, have some of the softest players out there. That's what makes them so easy to beat, but at the same time, it's not an easy task to do so.
Are there times where you fold even though everything makes you fairly sure it's a good call just incase the person outdraws you at the turn/river and you can't risk this due to the bubble? :)
 
AshK44

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But we agree and you are a nice human being unlike some on here. ;)

From the start of my joining the forum to this post I never acted in a way that would turn a current ally of mine into an enemy only in a way that would make my enemies more aggravated or my allies more entertained.

I don't dislike you or disagree with you so this is a twofold reason to not debate with you.

I know you are saying that I am arrogant, and I agree entirely that I am arrogant and that I turn small conflicts into big ones but this is a forum and even the ones running it know that drama like this keeps masses who are perhaps not too technical in poker entertained and attracts others too.

Furthermore, my topics are always open to newbies to post and I fully give them opportunities to expand what they say with me without shutting them down in any sense.



I do not dislike you either. I was more curious to see your response. I respect this response and agree these discussions do keep people engaged in a forum such as this. I think if me and you were to get into a debate that it would be a long one.
 
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Are there times where you fold even though everything makes you fairly sure it's a good call just incase the person outdraws you at the turn/river and you can't risk this due to the bubble? :)
Depends on the situation, honestly.

Are we talking about money bubble or FT bubble? Are we looking at preflop situations or postflop situations? What are effective stacks? What was action before me? Etc.

In general, I'm not afraid to bust out of the money bubble because min-cashing is in significant. Even if I had a decent 25 BB effective stack with a player sitting on 1 BB on the bubble, I'm not afraid to get it in with 1010+, AK. Possibly much wider vs opponent. Honestly, I cant tell you how many times I've bubbled with 20-30 BB effective stacks.

I'm don't fear getting sucked out on and busting out because I'm looking at the bigger picture. Losing a buy-in or giving up some easy min-cash equity is a small risk to take for a better reward when my hand does hold up. You need a bigger stack to make deeper runs and deeper runs means more profit. Even if I risk a 25 BB stack with only 40% equity preflop, that 4/10 or 2/5 times I do double up my stack, I just need 1 really deep run to make up for those 3/5x I busted out and give up small equity.

My strategy is to give up small, more frequent equity for bigger rewards.

The final table bubble is a bit different though because now we're looking at bigger payouts. So, with 25 BBs effective and a player with 1 BB, I'm not going to get in as wide: QQ+, AKs for 25 BBs because the risk of busting out is much greater in terms of profit. Where as I don't care about making the money bubble, I do want to make the FT.

Interestingly enough, I'm in the FT of a $25 GTD freeroll.

Edit: 3rd/622. Actually surprised I got this far as I was a 9 BBs (lost big hand) with ~40 players left (20 paid).
 
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