Why Can't I Always See the Losing Hand?

IamVALHALLA

IamVALHALLA

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Sometimes I'll open up hand history to see what they had, but there are occasions when the hand is not available to see. Why is this?
 
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spottedflyer

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because they diabled that option in the settings, its called mucking
 
Edison A

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do you mean the pokerstars Lobby? ... there is an option in settings where it says: show winning hand / show losing hand
 
IamVALHALLA

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do you mean the PokerStars Lobby? ... there is an option in settings where it says: show winning hand / show losing hand


The icon at the top left corner of the table that you can click on and replay previous hands; sometimes when I win a hand I can't see what they had.

I know you can "muck losing hands" but my question is - WHY can you muck without showing if you lose? Surely you have to show otherwise how did your opponent win? If that makes sense...
 
Edison A

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The icon at the top left corner of the table that you can click on and replay previous hands; sometimes when I win a hand I can't see what they had.

I know you can "muck losing hands" but my question is - WHY can you muck without showing if you lose? Surely you have to show otherwise how did your opponent win? If that makes sense...
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MrPokerVerse

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Each client is a little different but basically it is at the person discretion to show or not by settings selected as the picture shows above.
 
IamVALHALLA

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Each client is a little different but basically it is at the person discretion to show or not by settings selected as the picture shows above.


Still not really answering my question though, but perhaps I've not really explained exactly what I'm asking :D

Why are we allowed to not show when we lose a hand? I understand that if we fold then obviously we aren't showing but there are times when villain calls my river bet and immediately mucks his hand (obviously he's selected the option to muck losing hands), but why am I not allowed to see it? I won, so why can't I see what he had?

Does that make sense?
 
MrPokerVerse

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Still not really answering my question though, but perhaps I've not really explained exactly what I'm asking :D

Why are we allowed to not show when we lose a hand? I understand that if we fold then obviously we aren't showing but there are times when villain calls my river bet and immediately mucks his hand (obviously he's selected the option to muck losing hands), but why am I not allowed to see it? I won, so why can't I see what he had?

Does that make sense?

Just because you won the hand it doesn't entitle you know the villains card. That is at their discretion to show or muck. That is why those settings are in place. This is how it is done live. Winning the hand does not constitute you to anything besides the pot. Live poker allows you to pay for that information, it is however the choice of the losing player to offer that information. Their is nothing in it for them to allow someone to have that information.

Why do you feel entitled to that information just because you won the hand?
 
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Sprockett

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I am with op on this one. When someone call my river bet and muck, their hand should still be posible to see in the hand history. When playing live anybody can demand to see what your oponent called your river bet with. This is to prevent collusion. From Roberts rules of poker, the showdown, rule nr. 5:
"Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that has been called, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins."


I think the "muck loosing hand" button on stars just take away your opportunity to show villain that he didnt get value with his straight vs your set. I have never not been able to see in the hh what villain mucked after calling a river bet on any site, so I find it strange if that happend to op.
 
Spaceman

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In live poker, you have to request it and its complicated and not something to do after every mucking. That would be considered bad etiquette. And you can see why, showdowns and seeing the hand that your opponent had is the most valuable info in poker. That why there are so many rules who show first and who show first if there is a bet on the river.

Pokerstars make it already really easy to see mucking hands, at first I believe it was a glitch. I see what you saying, but the most you could ask is a request to see mucking hand that as in live situation will stall the game.

online poker is online poker. In live you could take your time on every street while in online its just that seconds you have. I say let it be.
 
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Sprockett

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In live poker, you have to request it and its complicated and not something to do after every mucking. That would be considered bad etiquette. And you can see why, showdowns and seeing the hand that your opponent had is the most valuable info in poker. That why there are so many rules who show first and who show first if there is a bet on the river.

Pokerstars make it already really easy to see mucking hands, at first I believe it was a glitch. I see what you saying, but the most you could ask is a request to see mucking hand that as in live situation will stall the game.

Online poker is online poker. In live you could take your time on every street while in online its just that seconds you have. I say let it be.



I agree with everything said here. To ask to see the loosing hand in a live game is really bad etiqutte, and would definitely piss me off if it happend in a game I play.
My point was that the losing hand should appear in the hh.




Sprockett
 
mtl mile end

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AFAIK, the replayer on PokerStars, Bet Online, and Sports Betting will show you the losing hands, even if they have been mucked at showdown. partypoker, America's Cardroom, and 888 do not allow you to see mucked cards in replay, unless they have been shown in "showing order" at the table (as if in live poker). In other words, the first set of sites show you the hands if they have not been mucked in play, and show you all of the hands in replay. The second set of sites don't show either the show down hands nor the hands in replay.
 
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Sprockett

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After reading the post above I may have the answer to OPs question. It is true that party dont show the mucked hand in the replayer, but if you open the hh (text), you can read it there. I havent played on 888 in a while, but I had the impression that it worked the same way there (I may be wrong). Have no idea AMC.

Sprockett
 
korneel

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If you are the first one to show your hand, I think it's pretty normal a losing player can muck his hand.
ofc If the losing players has to show his hand first, it would be weird.
 
Shady Slim

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Correct me if I am wrong, in a live game, the first player to the left of the button always shows. Then you have the opportunity to muck a losing hand. This is part of the process of determining the winning hand.

If this is so, does any poker site follow this rule of logic? I remember playing on PokerStars years ago and distinctly remember the person UTG always having to show, then subsequent beating hands being shown, until a winner is revealed. Of course, there are some who decide not to muck along the way.
 
mtl mile end

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Correct me if I am wrong, in a live game, the first player to the left of the button always shows. Then you have the opportunity to muck a losing hand. This is part of the process of determining the winning hand.

If this is so, does any poker site follow this rule of logic? I remember playing on PokerStars years ago and distinctly remember the person UTG always having to show, then subsequent beating hands being shown, until a winner is revealed. Of course, there are some who decide not to muck along the way.

Live, the last bettor is expected to show first, and quickly, if he has a good hand. If he shows reluctance (because it was a bluff), the player with a strong hand will usually show fairly quickly. If it was a check down on the River, players who think they have the best hand may show first. Sometimes all players are reluctant, and the dealer has to force players to show, starting with either the last bettor or first from the Button if the betting ceased before the River. The hard rules are pretty simple, but the reality is pretty complicated. It's a social/poker situation. Many live tournaments require everyone who is live at the River to show their cards. In most card rooms, any player at the table may ask to see the hands (people who do this are generally considered "dinks").


Online, (on PS at least), the first player from the Button shows, the next player shows only if they have a better hand, the next player shows only if they are better than the first two, etc, etc. Then you can check the replay to see what losing hands were mucked.
 
Shady Slim

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Online, (on PS at least), the first player from the Button shows, the next player shows only if they have a better hand, the next player shows only if they are better than the first two, etc, etc. Then you can check the replay to see what losing hands were mucked.

Thanks for the logic behind live games. If there was a Like Button at CardsChat, I would be clicking on it!

Regarding PokerStars, that is kind of how I remembered it. Wasn't aware of being able to see the mucked hands in replay, or maybe I did, but just forgot.

At ACR, not sure. I will have to take a look tonight when I am there and see what is what. It sure will come in handy in reconning other players. Stay tuned, will report back.
 
Shady Slim

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Big no for ACR. They don't show you mucked hands in replay. Nor do they have any options to do so.

Kind of sucky. But it is what it is. Flip side of that coin is that your opponents can't do it either.
 
Herkstwin

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Correct me if I am wrong, in a live game, the first player to the left of the button always shows. Then you have the opportunity to muck a losing hand. This is part of the process of determining the winning hand.

If this is so, does any poker site follow this rule of logic? I remember playing on PokerStars years ago and distinctly remember the person UTG always having to show, then subsequent beating hands being shown, until a winner is revealed. Of course, there are some who decide not to muck along the way.

Lots of opinions here, so I will add mine.

In live games, I understand that the first person to act in the last round of betting, is expected to show first. If the player is raised, then the raiser is expected to show, ahead of any callers. Other players are then allowed to muck their hands without showing. Why a poker site would allow players to see mucked hands escapes my understanding.
 
Shady Slim

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In live games, I understand that the first person to act in the last round of betting, is expected to show first. If the player is raised, then the raiser is expected to show, ahead of any callers.

Mtl Mile End explained live rules pretty well in #16 above.
 
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martina pinto

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it's weird is it could be that you've been absent or better looking in the hands part and the repeat click appears
 
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Miles12

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I was under the impression that no player had to show their hands in live poker unless they believe they are the winner in which case they have to show their hand as proof that they obviously won. I know people who have mucked their hands and threw them believing they had lost when in fact they had won but it is down to the player to know the rules of the game and only for the dealer to confirm the win. I don't believe it's a requirement for anyone to actually show their cards unless playing for the win otherwise it could be classed as a tell on the strategy of cards that you could be playing, I'm pretty sure this is the main reason why you are allowed to muck at any time at the end, just as you could have folded at anytime during your betting turn. It's not a requirement for you too see my cards unless I say or believe I have the best hand, it just isn't, just as it isn't a requirement for you to see my cards at any point that I could have folded if I believe I had nothing, which as mentioned is up to the player to know.
 
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Herkstwin

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I was under the impression that no player had to show their hands in live poker unless they believe they are the winner in which case they have to show their hand as proof that they obviously won.


I have played in dozens of poker rooms across North America. In ALL games, the showdown goes as follows:
The player who initiated the last action MUST show first. All other players, in the order in which they called, MAY show or muck. What often happens is that players randomly show their cards. I have seen the person who initiated the action wait till others turn over their cards, then muck. Ideally, the other players should WAIT till the person who bet first shows, according to the required order, to allow all other players to see if the player was trying to buy the pot with a bluff.
 
Raccoony

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At some online poker rooms it is visible when you check Replays or Hand history and some others don't have that.
 
ggf99

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Still not really answering my question though, but perhaps I've not really explained exactly what I'm asking :D

Why are we allowed to not show when we lose a hand? I understand that if we fold then obviously we aren't showing but there are times when villain calls my river bet and immediately mucks his hand (obviously he's selected the option to muck losing hands), but why am I not allowed to see it? I won, so why can't I see what he had?

Does that make sense?


Ok. Let's talk about position. When iэm in position I allow myself not to show loosing hand.
Couse this does not affect on distribution of hand we played. But this can make to affect on some notes that oppponet will mark in his head. So this is my right- Not to show loosing hand in position.

There is also some online rooms that have option never show loosing hand( oop or ip, they don't care)
 
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