Why is 22 vs AK different than QQ vs AK?

sms3484

sms3484

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I was looking up the odds for both of these situations, and the QQ vs AK has a (slightly) higher chance of winning than the 22 does. I must be missing something mathematically here, because in either situation it seems as if the odds should be almost exactly the same!

What's the difference?
 
vanquish

vanquish

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i asked kathy liebert and she said that it's because 22 gets counterfeited by the board more often (such as JJTT9 board) than QQ
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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there might be more but this is what i thought of in the 10 seconds i could be bothered to think about it.

- 22 can make 2 straights (A2345, 23456), QQ can make 3 (AKQJT, KQJT9, QJT98).

- 22 can't win in 5-card flush on the board situations, QQ can.

- 22 can get counterfeited by higher board 2-pairs etc.
 
Rossta

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QQ takes away the AK's chances of getting a straight as well
 
arkadiy

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In very rare situations QQ is better than 22 here. All listed above.

The one that hurts the most is flop brings a pair, then turn a blank, and river same as turn for 2 pair above you :S
 
pokerkq

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ODDS

I ALWAYS RATHER HAVE A POCKET PAIR VS ANYHAND
 
sms3484

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Wow, thanks for the quick replies! I feel silly for not realizing the chances of the 22 being "counterfeited" since this actually has happened to me with low pp's more than once!
 
arkadiy

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I ALWAYS RATHER HAVE A POCKET PAIR VS ANYHAND

WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE 1010 VS MY JJ OR WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE QK VS MY JJ????????????????????????????????????
 
jaketrevvor

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WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE 1010 VS MY JJ OR WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE QK VS MY JJ????????????????????????????????????

Don't be rude :eek:

The funny part is the title of "ODDS".
 
JimmyBrizzy

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Like other people said the QQ's interfere with some of the AK's outs much better than the 22's.

To the other question of rather having a pocket pair (22) vs an AK or two cards (3,5o) vs AK. It is usually around 55-45 split with the pocket pair better than the two high cards, but you get about 5-3 odds with two high vs two low (about 60-40 split). You'd rather take the pocket pair.
 
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switch0723

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I ALWAYS RATHER HAVE A POCKET PAIR VS ANYHAND

I think that pocket 2's are actually the underdog vs 10-9s, 9-8s, 8-7s and 6-7. I THINK, not 100% sure but i think thats the case.

Heres an interesting one. Which hand would you prefer here

8,2 off or 67 suited ?
 
jaketrevvor

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22 is an underdog to 35s and 74s, crazy imo

76s beats 82o afaik but barely.
 
dj11

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Heres an interesting one. Which hand would you prefer here

8,2 off or 67 suited ?

I think it doesn't matter as they are both muckable! But if we add that we are the BB, and it is a free look, I'll take the suited 67.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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just playing with pokerstove

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.458% 48.05% 02.41% 39494076 1977690.00 { 76s }
Hand 1: 49.542% 47.14% 02.41% 38741136 1977690.00 { 82o }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 27.702% 26.37% 01.33% 2751811 139273.58 { 76s }
Hand 1: 15.585% 14.41% 01.17% 1504118 122337.08 { 82o }
Hand 2: 28.366% 26.56% 01.80% 2771997 188324.92 { random }
Hand 3: 28.348% 26.54% 01.81% 2769953 188480.42 { random }
 
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switch0723

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ahh ok dm, cheers, i actually thought the 8 high would have been better, what if the 8 is the same suit as the 6,7 so takes away one of hte outs to a flush, which one is favourite then?
 
jaketrevvor

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I think it doesn't matter as they are both muckable!

Blasphemer! 67s is the most erotic hand in the deck I tells ya!

Oh and v. interesting second one DM...

Edit: 8h2x is 50.162% fave over 6h7h, gd point switch that's rather funky.
 
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switch0723

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well funky is my middle name, if philip is another word for funky that is
 
jaketrevvor

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So I guess that makes you're full name Switch Philip 0723, hmmm kinda catchy...
 
royalburrito24

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Here is a situation where 22 gets counterfeited. I was the one that got the guy to play the board :)

full tilt poker Game #4712649598: $10 + $1 Tournament (35132858), Table 13 - 30/60 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:31:28 ET - 2008/01/02
Seat 1: royalburrito24 (1,480)
Seat 2: box__or___rain (660)
Seat 3: SimpleVr6 (2,438)
Seat 4: grafgreif (2,340)
Seat 5: RPKings (7,242)
Seat 6: moonraaker (4,075), is sitting out
Seat 7: FABNINI74 (1,455)
Seat 8: aceinyourface2 (2,150)
Seat 9: Gianni K (1,980)
box__or___rain posts the small blind of 30
SimpleVr6 posts the big blind of 60
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to royalburrito24 [As Qs]
grafgreif calls 60
RPKings calls 60
moonraaker folds
aceinyourface2: gh
FABNINI74 folds
aceinyourface2 calls 60
Gianni K folds
royalburrito24 has 15 seconds left to act
royalburrito24 raises to 300
box__or___rain folds
SimpleVr6 folds
grafgreif calls 240
RPKings folds
aceinyourface2 calls 240
*** FLOP *** [5s 5h 8d]
grafgreif checks
RPKings: ty
aceinyourface2 checks
royalburrito24 bets 1,180, and is all in
grafgreif calls 1,180
RPKings: 10s scare me
aceinyourface2 has 15 seconds left to act
aceinyourface2: had aj suit
aceinyourface2 folds
royalburrito24 shows [As Qs]
grafgreif shows [2c 2h]
*** TURN *** [5s 5h 8d] [8s]
*** RIVER *** [5s 5h 8d 8s] [Td]
royalburrito24 shows two pair, Eights and Fives
grafgreif shows two pair, Eights and Fives
royalburrito24 wins the pot (3,410) with two pair, Eights and Fives
 
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