When they tell you its gambling, explain it like this.

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Michael Paler

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I am amazed to discover poker players who actually think poker is simply "luck" based and that it is gambling. This is just not true. I like to use chess as an example, so lets see if I can drive a spike into the heart of this falsehood that it is simply "gambling."

Argument: you are "betting" for cash, therefore it is gambling.

You make physical moves in poker just like you do in chess, only you use your chips to do so, not chess pieces. So this is not simply “money” you are “gambling” for one main reason; there is not an overall unchangeable “wager” being made towards the outcome of the hand or the game. You can only do that outside of the game; “I bet xx dollars so-and-so wins this game.” While it seems you are doing exactly this, only in stages, during the hand by betting each of the times that you can, here is the difference; no set amount of any bet or wager towards the final outcome is ever always made. You are in a sense doing this when you go “all-in”, however, you do not have to. So, the ability to go all in or not makes it a type of “wager-move”. Or this can be avoided by placing a “ceiling” on the amount you can wager-move (ie; fixed/pot limit). Then you can only go all in if that is all you have left and it takes that much to wager move. You can wager-move more, you can wager-move less, you can wager-move nothing or you can even wager-move by folding! But it is a wager-move. Not a wager.

Thus there never is a set amount of any wager towards the outcome. A bet or wager of a set amount made on the overall outcome outside the game is gambling. You are betting on the outcome, thus gambling. You are not doing this while playing the game. You are making wager moves along the way and the amount can change at any time. For this reason, the chips have a value attached to them that may or may not match what you spend to get into the game. For example, you might be in a tournament where you pay to get in for, say $30.00, and you get $3,000.00 in chips to wager-move with. Or you can buy into a cash game for $300.00 and get $300.00 in chips to wager-move with. It just depends on what type of wager-move poker game it is; cash or tournament.

Argument: it is just "luck." Luck = gambling.

Look, everything you do in chess, using the odds of probability, knowing your opponent, what he might do in a certain situation, is all part of playing poker as well, only, even more so. While you use math and knowledge to speculate on what your opponent might do or what piece he might move and where, in poker you use math and knowledge to speculate on what cards he could be holding, what he may or may not do next, etc. This is not just "luck" then when you are successful.

You also use math, knowledge and combine it with what he does with his chips, how much he bets (wager-moves), when he bets, if he checks; all of that gives you information with which to act upon. This includes mathematically/logically figuring out what cards you/your opponent are holding plus what cards are out on the board and what you need in order to make a winning hand. You use pot odds and the odds of probability for getting the card that you need to make your winning hand if you do not yet have it and there are more cards yet to come. Math, odds, knowledge...it is all the same, only even more complex than chess, in some ways. So "luck" is a relative term used here. If you succeed after applying the odds of probability that is not just random luck as it was calculated. So even if you do throw your money in with no thought as to how or why and you win, those same odds can explain why you won. You are actually no more "lucky" when an ace hits and "saves" you than you are "lucky" when a chess player fails to move a pawn that prevents his knight from moving onto that square and then that fails to prevent your attack.

Luck in poker is not the same as luck in, say, picking a winning lotto number. Skill plays a far greater roll, whether you realize or not. Luck to win a game cannot reliably be reproduced at will. The skill certainly can.

So, when you hear people say this, set them straight.
 
domeburglar

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I dont think chess is a good example of something to compare to poker.. In chess if your the better player you will win.. Thats the reason great chess players can continuously win over and over again..

There is definitely luck involved in poker but its 100% more skill.. Just use the fact that there are people that do it as a profession.. Its impossible for them to just be that lucky forever..
 
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jcla6985

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Almost, poker technically is gambling because you bet money with no absolute guartee on return. Now to say its all luck is crazy. Its mostly skill. But luck comesinto it.
 
psychotie

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I always use the argument , that poker is a game offf skill and luck. With normally more influence of skill than luck.
I proof it by pointing out that people doing it proffessionally and people make their living by doing it. If it would be only luck , no one could do it. Luckyly here in germany we had some very good documentary about poker televised and with the winning of Pius Heinz at the wsop main event the intrest of a lot of media was focused on this theme
 
Aleksei

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I am amazed to discover poker players who actually think poker is simply "luck" based and that it is gambling.
Poker IS gambling; with a strong element of skill. This makes it no different from blackjack, or for that matter playing equities markets or any sort of investment whatsoever. Anything that has a luck-based element outside of your control is by definition gambling. That does not mean poker isn't a game of skill, it just means it's not bloody chess.

Most regs will tell you this, because it is what it is. It's not a crapshoot; you're not just rolling the dice and hoping (that's what fish do :D). But neither do you have absolute control over the final outcome. That's why we bankroll, and why we repeat the mantra "it's about decisions, not results."
 
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LeGenie

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Luck can only take you so far! When you are playing thousands of hands a day the element of luck starts shadowing skill
 
Wolfpack43ACC

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Luck is only probability taken personally and nothing can run from probability, it just is. Even the highest level of sports have a degree of "luck" to them. A bounce this way, a bounce that way, but just like in anything in life more often than not over an extended period of time the cream always rises to the crop.

Those who have no idea what they are doing make poker a game of luck, those who know what they are doing make it a game of skill.
 
Michael Paler

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I dont think chess is a good example of something to compare to poker.. In chess if your the better player you will win.. Thats the reason great chess players can continuously win over and over again..

There is definitely luck involved in poker but its 100% more skill.. Just use the fact that there are people that do it as a profession.. Its impossible for them to just be that lucky forever..

You contradict yourself in your own statement. In chess, being the better player is the exact same thing as being the more skilled player. Same thing is true in poker.
 
Aleksei

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Let's be clear on the difference here:

-If you play an infinite number of chess matches against a player of inferior skill, you will win every one of them, bar some oversight in your own gameplay.

-If you play an infinite number of HUSNGs against an opponent of inferior skill level, you will win about 60% of them, barring some oversight in your own gameplay.

That about explain it?
 
Michael Paler

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Poker IS gambling; with a strong element of skill. This makes it no different from blackjack, or for that matter playing equities markets or any sort of investment whatsoever. Anything that has a luck-based element outside of your control is by definition gambling. That does not mean poker isn't a game of skill, it just means it's not bloody chess.

Most regs will tell you this, because it is what it is. It's not a crapshoot; you're not just rolling the dice and hoping (that's what fish do :D). But neither do you have absolute control over the final outcome. That's why we bankroll, and why we repeat the mantra "it's about decisions, not results."

I guess we shall have to agree to disagree. First you say it is gambling, then you say that it is not a crapshoot. In order for it to be gambling, poker would have to be just that; a crapshoot. And applying that "same luck based element outside your control" is just flat out false because it is not always like that...otherwise why would you not just play any two cards you are given? In any game you will either win or you will lose.

This includes chess. But you can control it somewhat; you can always just fold. That renders the "luck based element" shot all to hell. You cannot control a crapshoot at all. And in no game do you have absolute control over the outcome. Does that mean that every game you play is gambling? I mean, come on, tell me any game where you do have complete control over the outcome. I don't know what dictionary you got that out of, but clearly it is wrong.

And let me quote here from poker listings.com, for those of you who think me stupid for comparing chess to poker:

"If there is a group of people more prepared for success at the 2011 world series of poker than chess players, PokerListings hasn’t found it."

"Historically, chess players have proven the transition to poker to be a profitable one."

Full article here:http://www.pokerlistings.com/wsop-2011-best-bets-chess-players-30463

Or how about this one?http://en.chessbase.com/home/TabId/211/PostId/4006253Or this one?http://en.chessbase.com/home/TabId/211/PostId/4008263
How about this one?http://chess.about.com/od/chesscommunities/a/Chess-And-Poker.htm

To cap it off, there is this quote and article: "In chess, you have to both calculate — imagine where the pieces will go in advance-- and evaluate — once they go there, how is your position? — and I think there’s some similarity there with poker. For instance, in the latest series I played at WSOP Circuit Atlantic City, there was a hand where I three-bet the turn with a flush draw with second pair. It was pretty easy to approximate how often he needed to fold in order to make my three-bet decent. But who cares about all that if you’re just wrong that you have any fold equity at all — maybe this opponent has no bluffs in his turn check-raise range). Similarly in chess, who cares if you calculate 20 moves ahead if you’re wrong about the resulting position?"http://www.pokernews.com/news/2012/12/the-grindettes-jennifer-shahade-talks-poker-chess-being-a-wo-14007.htm

You might want to revisit your chess game. I know I have. It can help improve your poker skills, beyond a doubt.
 
Matt Vaughan

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fwiw chess isn't free from an element of chance, it just has a lower degree of chance than poker.
 
Propane Goat

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Could we also argue that the level of "gambling" in poker is inversely proportional to some degree to the player's skill level? For example, if some 20-year poker veteran and I both bought into the same tournament, I would be gambling to a much higher degree because my skill level is vastly inferior. I can gamble with my suited 72 and 95 because that's what ignorant fish do all the time and get lucky quite frequently, or the shark can play these types of hands with some specific strategy in mind based on player reads and experience.
 
domeburglar

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You contradict yourself in your own statement. In chess, being the better player is the exact same thing as being the more skilled player. Same thing is true in poker.

Being the better player in chess is no where near the same thing as being the better player in poker... Put the best chess player in the world vs an average chess player and 100% of the time the good player will come out on top...

Now, put the best poker player in the world vs an average player and he will not be able to beat the average player everytime... Even the biggest fish will get a string of winning hands now and than.. thats what keeps them coming..
 
Michael Paler

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Could we also argue that the level of "gambling" in poker is inversely proportional to some degree to the player's skill level? For example, if some 20-year poker veteran and I both bought into the same tournament, I would be gambling to a much higher degree because my skill level is vastly inferior. I can gamble with my suited 72 and 95 because that's what ignorant fish do all the time and get lucky quite frequently, or the shark can play these types of hands with some specific strategy in mind based on player reads and experience.

Yes, but irrespective of luck that 27 and 95 are severely odds challenged. Of course you can simply luck out with them, yet you are defying the odds when you do. In craps it is totally luck, period. This is why I say poker is not gambling.

And why is it when a "fish" plays garbage and "sucks out" it is thought of as pure luck, yet when a big stack calls a short stacks all in with the same garbage hand and beats the AA it was a "skillfully crafted risk that was rewarded"?? In other words, the fish might be making a smart move that lines right up with the proper odds, only he simply does not realize it, nor do you! "Even a broken clock is accurate twice a day" is more appropriate than just fish getting lucky, IMO.

Also, IMO, if you just keep it in your head that poker is heavily weighted towards "luck" you will not be nearly as successful as you would if you believe that it is heavily weighted towards skill and proper use of the odds (pot, hand, probability). This is a clear "glass half empty" vs "glass half full" issue; If you always see it as half empty, this affects you in a negative way. If you see it as half full, this affects you in a positive way. This is partially how our brain works. It finds reasons to justify your beliefs.

If you are always convinced the fish will suck out on you, then they will. Once I realized that, I was able to find ways to defeat them being so weak and obvious. Sure, they still "suck out" on me, but far less.

I hate to go Star Wars here, but "you will find a great many truths we believe in depend on our own point of view." This also applies to our successes and our failures.
 
arahel_jazz

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Poker IS gambling; with a strong element of skill. This makes it no different from blackjack, or for that matter playing equities markets or any sort of investment whatsoever. Anything that has a luck-based element outside of your control is by definition gambling. That does not mean poker isn't a game of skill, it just means it's not bloody chess.

So by your definition above - buying stocks in the stock market is gambling. You put money into a stock based upon research. The stock rises or falls outside of your control. If you are LUCKY, then you will profit. If your moves are incorrect, you will lose money. Just like Poker. So why is Poker stigmatized and playing with the stock market gets cool commercials from E-Trade (that make millions of $$$ on your "gambling")

There are tons of things in life that can be called "gambling". Hell, you gamble with your life every time you get behind the wheel of a car.
 
Matt Vaughan

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Everything IS gambling. There is an element of chance in every thing we do.
 
Poker Orifice

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So, when you hear people say this, set them straight.
I used to bother making an argument for it but stopped a long time ago as I found it is just not worth it. If they don't know what they're talking about... fk 'em. I just nod my head & agree with them... "Yup! Gambling. All luck!" (yawn)
 
dudemanstan

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Well not players, but my family members are never going to believe me when I tell them I know what I'm doing, and it is not gambling for me. My aunt said oh you will be a good player when you win a million.

They ask.. "well how did you do last night?" Oh I made the final table for the tenth time in a row. " oh how much did you win?" I got 1 dollar its a free buy in.. Then they just start laughing, and rolling there eyes. Man it makes me so mad!
 
Michael Paler

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So by your definition above - buying stocks in the stock market is gambling. You put money into a stock based upon research. The stock rises or falls outside of your control. If you are LUCKY, then you will profit. If your moves are incorrect, you will lose money. Just like Poker. So why is Poker stigmatized and playing with the stock market gets cool commercials from E-Trade (that make millions of $$$ on your "gambling")

There are tons of things in life that can be called "gambling". Hell, you gamble with your life every time you get behind the wheel of a car.

+1.

Hell, +1 more!
 
Michael Paler

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I used to bother making an argument for it but stopped a long time ago as I found it is just not worth it. If they don't know what they're talking about... fk 'em. I just nod my head & agree with them... "Yup! Gambling. All luck!" (yawn)

You know, I am normally the same way. I mean some people should hear the counter argument killing theirs, but they do not; they hear "you only lose this argument if you agree!" and just will not admit they are wrong! So much so that it really stuns me. Some folks do not realize that means they think that they know it all and have it all perfectly correct. But then they talk about "the willingness to learn and admit when you are wrong". Man, it just makes me want to barf right on their shoes.

No, the reason I try to bring this out is so I do not lose those whose minds are not a closed book, those who are not hypocrites and can admit they might have been wrong after all. We all need to stick together, we need to make this fact a reality in more minds, because I truly believe it is a fact. And you cannot stop games of skill online, money or not. If there is a chess championship online and I have to pay $30.00 to get in, why that is just A.O.K. But if it is for a poker tournament, It's illegal? Bull sheet!

So I try for a while with some and just give up, screw em. They will not admit they are wrong. It's like criminals insisting they are innocent even in the face of a video and mountains of witnesses and evidence proving they are not! What can you do?

I try to help those with open minds to understand it. If I can clarify it for only one person that is one more on the right side of the facts. And that is one more person closer to telling the Government they are wrong and to let us play our game of skill unimpeded by wrong headed stupidity and raw prejudice.
 
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its gambling but skill is involved......cant really say their is no luck because it is....the luck is based off percentages in poker....certain percent we will lose with a certain hand other times we will win with it
 
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The game of poker before Moneymakers win 75% skill 25% luck, the game of poker after Moneymakers win 55% skill 45% luck. Its easier to beat good players than maniacs or donks, imho.
 
pcgnome

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I've heard that poker is 90% luck and 10% skill. You play a hand the best that you can, and you still can still suck out on the river . It happens all the time, and you have to get used to it or you have to go do something else.
Comparing poker to chess is a lot of bs. Chess is all about keeping several steps ahead of your opponent(You are only allowed one opponent). It's a strategy game that has nothing to do with chance at all.
 
Michael Paler

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its gambling but skill is involved......cant really say their is no luck because it is....the luck is based off percentages in poker....certain percent we will lose with a certain hand other times we will win with it

Well, I just do not agree, sorry. I do not believe it is gambling since you can control the majority of it. So much skill is involved it renders pure "luck" not relevant. And that luck you do see often is not luck at all. You can go back and look up the math, the odds explain what happened and why.

It's the same when I play chess. If I make a play based on what I know about my opponent and he does something different, that does not mean my "lucky shot failed". It just means that the odds of probability I used could have gone either way and this time it did not go in the direction that I calculated would help me. I was not merely unlucky. It just didn't work as I planed it. But I planned it; I did not just make the move "hoping" I would get "lucky"! I set it up so he would face a choice and when then he either did one thing or another, just as predicted. If I have that possibility covered as well, then I can still win.

Even so, yes, the unexpected can always happen. If you want to consider that bad or good luck, fine. I cannot argue it being called that in that example. But that is nowhere near the majority of the game. Certainly not enough that it is "gambling".
 
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If youre having to justify to someone that poker isnt gambling.... maybe you have other issues most notably (and ironically) an addiction to gambling that your friends and family are trying to make you aware of.

Poker is DEFINITELY gambling...no matter how to try to spin it. You can play the game with skill but it is gambling.
 
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