When are cards "really" mucked?

cdidit622

cdidit622

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I have played in many different games and the muck rule seems to change often, at Jacksonville best bet poker room I saw a player make a bet and the next guy folded and that player mucked his cards because he thought it was heads up. After realizing there was another player in the hand he got his cards from the muck pile and play was continued. I know that example was a bit extreme but there has also been a game where I saw a player attempt to show his hand during a showdown , toss his cards a little to high and one card landed face down and the dealer said it was mucked. It was clear that he had the winning hand, but my question what is the most common rule?
 
absoluthamm

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I would say the general rule is that when you pitch your cards towards the dealer, they are no longer yours. I have never seen, nor heard of someone being able to fish their cards back out of the pile, that doesn't even make sense regardless of the table action.

The second one sounds odd too, why are you tossing your cards to showdown a hand, just turn them over. Tossing them would imply folding/mucking and essentially, you are leaving your cards unproctected(yes, I know it's the showdown, but still).

Common rule, fold when you mean to fold and keep your cards close when you don't, lol.
 
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MAX101

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I've learned to verbally state my intentions prior to acting, that way there's no guessing by anyone!!
 
left52side

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I would say the general rule is that when you pitch your cards towards the dealer, they are no longer yours. I have never seen, nor heard of someone being able to fish their cards back out of the pile, that doesn't even make sense regardless of the table action.
I agree AH,I have never seen this before in my life.
That is wierd for bestbet jax because I play there alot,and seems to be a pretty well run establishment.
I have always been taught that your cards are your responsibility at all times,if you pitch them towards the middle or towards the dealer you are dead and mucked.
The situation in jacksonville where he mucked out of turn would have brought the floor manager or tournament director over and had them make a desision.
His cards by the way you described it should have been mucked.
That was a silly mistake on there part and they should be punished for it.
 
cdidit622

cdidit622

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Don't get me wrong I really think best bet is a great place to play. It actually surprise me that it was the floor manager that said he was able to get his cards! Also the second example was a home game, I actually suggested that players stop trying to be fancy and just show your cards!lol When in tunics I was told any forward motion is a call with chips and muck with cards.
 
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when a card touches the muck pile it is dead, there is no certainty that the cards did not get mixed up...the digging out of the cards is very odd and unusual - if you have any doubts, do not hesitate to call the floor. on the other hand, always protect your cards, cap them hold them whatever, the dealer will scoop them on you if u are not careful.
 
IntenseHeat

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I'm not sure what "officially" constitutes a mucked hand. I've seen dealers snatch uncapped cards out from in front of players before. And because cards are often slid into the muck, and not placed neatly on top of the muck, the cards are often unretrievable. I've seen hands where a player meant to "fold and show" what turned out to be the best hand, but because there was no verbal announcement of "fold" and the player folded their hand face up, they won the pot. I saw a hand where Roland DeWolfe showed one card and announced K high. His opponent held on to his cards refusing to show until Roland showed the other card. Instead Roland turned his K back over and attempted to shove both of his cards into the bottom of the muck. The dealer prevented him from mucking his hand and took his cards from him. Only then did his opponent turn over his Q high hand as the dealer turned over De Wolfe's K-5. Even though he had been prevented from mucking his hand because action had been on him and he was required to show, the pot was given to his opponent because he had not shown both of his cards. I might have argued that he had not mucked his hand, only attempted to, but was prevented from doing so by the dealer. If his hand was dead then the dealer shouldn't have turned his cards over. But I'm not a touney official.

I think cdidit and luckyhearts said it best. This could all be avoided by being deliberate in your actions. Don't be fancy! if you mean to fold, say "fold" and fold your cards. If you want to show, just turn them over. Don't be trying to do magic tricks with them. And by all means cap your cards, or be ready to play hot hands with the dealer. I mean you better be lightning fast and rap them hard enough to leave bruises on their knuckles. I usually bring something specifically for capping my cards with me. I know some people just use one of their chips. But what happens in the case that you, like Estelle Denise, don't have a chip to cap your cards with because you have just shove all-in and the dealer snatches your Aces out from in front of you. In a pinch, I will take off my watch and use it to cap my cards with. It's best not to take chances and to be clear in about your intentions.

 
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RiverMeTimbers

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I'm not sure what "officially" constitutes a mucked hand. I've seen dealers snatch uncapped cards out from in front of players before. And because cards are often slid into the muck, and not placed neatly on top of the muck, the cards are often unretrievable. I've seen hands where a player meant to "fold and show" what turned out to be the best hand, but because there was no verbal announcement of "fold" and the player folded their hand face up, they won the pot. I saw a hand where Roland DeWolfe showed one card and announced K high. His opponent held on to his cards refusing to show until Roland showed the other card. Instead Roland turned his K back over and attempted to shove both of his cards into the bottom of the muck. The dealer prevented him from mucking his hand and took his cards from him. Only then did his opponent turn over his Q high hand as the dealer turned over De Wolfe's K-5. Even though he had been prevented from mucking his hand because action had been on him and he was required to show, the pot was given to his opponent because he had not shown both of his cards. I might have argued that he had not mucked his hand, only attempted to, but was prevented from doing so by the dealer. If his hand was dead then the dealer shouldn't have turned his cards over. But I'm not a touney official.

I think cdidit and luckyhearts said it best. This could all be avoided by being deliberate in your actions. Don't be fancy! if you mean to fold, say "fold" and fold your cards. If you want to show, just turn them over. Don't be trying to do magic tricks with them. And by all means cap your cards, or be ready to play hot hands with the dealer. I mean you better be lightning fast and rap them hard enough to leave bruises on their knuckles. I usually bring something specifically for capping my cards with me. I know some people just use one of their chips. But what happens in the case that you, like Estelle Denise, don't have a chip to cap your cards with because you have just shove all-in and the dealer snatches your Aces out from in front of you. In a pinch, I will take off my watch and use it to cap my cards with. It's best not to take chances and to be clear in about your intentions.

Dealer Mucks Aces - World Series of Poker 2009 - YouTube


This sucks so bad! But it just goes to show the importance of protecting your cards. I've had this same thing happen to me before, luckily not in the wsop lol.
 
dirtyoldog

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ya i agree if you toss them trying to be cool your a fool keep em tight and turn them over like you care.if you want to play them say call and flip em over after seeing that video i might bring something to protect my cards now unreal ide want to kill that dealer
 
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DeadlyAim

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Have a card protector or what I like to do is I usually organize my chips in front like a wall or and my cards are behind them.

I usually organize them by bb so I got an idea when I need to switch to short stack play.

I say "I raise", "I fold" and usually "I check" or do finger tap. So not much to misinterpret.
 
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dragonflyamb

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I thought the rule was that if you put the cards over the line, face down, they are mucked. Also have to be careful to protect your cards if you're in a seat by the dealer because the dealer could sweep them by accident , and that would be your fault, not their's. For a home game, however cards that were mocked by accident maybe because someone didn't understand the play have been pulled back if they are easily identified and the rest of the players at the table don't object
 
OzExorcist

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The actual rule from Robert's Rules of Poker (Section 3 - General Poker Rules, Dead Hands) is this:
2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.
Different poker rooms can, of course, have their own variations on that. But that's the base rule.

DeadlyAim said:
Have a card protector or what I like to do is I usually organize my chips in front like a wall or and my cards are behind them.

That can be just as big of a problem, because if the dealer or other players can't see your cards they're liable to forget you're in the hand and act out of turn as a result.
 
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