When are the cards generated in online games?

centaurix · May 31, 2015

I'm wondering if card game sites generally generate the card immediately before being dealt, or whether the entire deck is fixed in place before anyone gets their cards. This question would require some inside knowledge, obviously.

Sometimes I say "Oh, I should have been in that hand!" after I see what happened. But, I then think, "Well if I were in the hand, maybe different cards would have been dealt.". In most card games you can actually get dealt additional cards, which once again makes me wonder about whether I'm taking a card from the dealer pool or simply making a card that was already on the table fixed in place, simply visible to me instead of invisible.

Fknife · May 31, 2015

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/bad...ll-rigged-roads-lead-297777/post-2543731.html

No Brainer · May 31, 2015

Fknife said:
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/bad...ll-rigged-roads-lead-297777/post-2543731.html

That's an awesome post... Interesting to see Stars is the only one with the static shuffle.

DaveE · May 31, 2015

Fknife said:
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/bad...ll-rigged-roads-lead-297777/post-2543731.html

That's a great post.

Just to add for the OP, to answer your question...some sites randomize the whole deck (I think pokerstars is one) before dealing, the flop, turn and river are set. Some randomise every card (full tilt I think does this).

For the first one your actions wont change anything for the second they possibly can although there's no way to control it obv.

AugustWest · May 31, 2015

That was a interesting post!

DaPirate · May 31, 2015

Good read and great explanation of the deals.

centaurix · Jun 4, 2015

Fknife said:
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/bad...ll-rigged-roads-lead-297777/post-2543731.html

Fknife, thanks for much for pointing out that post. The key text with the answer is:

This simplified example which closely mimics a live shuffle and deal is called a "static" shuffle, because the deck is shuffled before the hand is dealt and not again until the next hand is ready to be dealt. As far as I know Stars is the *only* online poker site that uses a static shuffle -- all others I know of use a constant shuffle. Which means after card #1 is dealt, the remaining cards are shuffled AGAIN, then card #2 is dealt, then the rest of the deck is shuffled AGAIN, and so on. Basically, the deck never stops shuffling -- the "dealer" just stops it long enough to "reach in and grab a card" before the shuffle continues. Hence the term, constant shuffle. BTW despite popular belief, this isn't done for increased randomness (which is a misnomer, because it's either random or it's not, much like you're either pregnant or you're not), but rather for increased security. PokerStars uses a hardware TRNG most likely to seed their software PRNG, because really the seed is the Achilles heel of any RNG. If the seed is not random or is in any way predictable, then the entire sequence generated by the RNG is compromised and can be predicted. Most other sites are probably seeding from less sophisticated means, so to decrease the likelyhood of a sequence being "cracked" during the course of a hand such that you might predict, say, the river card, they just constantly seed and shuffle their deck so you basically have no practical hope of keeping up with their shuffle.

So, if you in Pokerstars, then you can hit yourself if you missed a great turn or river. In Pokerstars, the card order isn't changed after the initial dealing of the cards. But the others re-shuffle after each and every dealing of cards. So if you are doing a Full Tilt game and miss a great turn or river flush, it probably would not have happened that way if you had played differently! This is very interesting to know and I'm impressed someone was able to find the answers.

RichL · Jun 4, 2015

This is how PokerStars shuffle their cards (as at Oct 2014)...

infotunes · Jun 6, 2015

It once happened to me that in a cardroom (don't know which anymore) my internet connection was down during a game. Though the turn and the river showed up. This made me think that in this case the cards were already known (after being random generated). This does not seems a secure solution, certainly not if it already received by the client, since it is not a hard job to get the information before showing the cards in the client.

OzExorcist · Jun 16, 2015

infotunes said:
It once happened to me that in a cardroom (don't know which anymore) my internet connection was down during a game. Though the turn and the river showed up. This made me think that in this case the cards were already known (after being random generated). This does not seems a secure solution, certainly not if it already received by the client, since it is not a hard job to get the information before showing the cards in the client.

More likely that was just lag

Tosh_67 · Jun 16, 2015

Yeah I used to wonder if the cards were generated in advance of the hand and even suspected some players may have special software that could see other peoples hands etc...

I've played enough now to see that hole card distribution to me fits in with probabilities and Allins preflop percentage win rates bear out in the long run... You see lots of posts about bad beats but not so many about suck outs and we all have plenty of both I'm sure...

I think to write RNG software that enjoys singling out one player and enjoys dealing crushing river cards over and over for its own amusement whilst at the same time rewarding fish with constant suck outs would be a major piece of software engineering. You would have to write a program that was sadistic and mischievous and favoured one player over another. I don't think AI has actually evolved that far yet

centaurix · Sep 20, 2017

I see I made this post in 2009, then in 2013 someone answered my post noting that in 2008 someone had already figured out Pokerstars has static shuffle and the other ones have dynamic shuffle. So now in 2017 I see that my question was answered in 2008. Thats great, but now I'm wondering that if 10 years later, that information is still accurate. I think there are a number of poke rooms that now have static shuffle. Dynamic shuffle infuriates me for some reason. Pokerstars isn't even legal any more in the US so I can't play the only cardroom that I don't look at as annoying. I can't properly regret playing or not playing a hand when the results are completely different than what I think they would have been.

OzExorcist · Sep 20, 2017

centaurix said:
I can't properly regret playing or not playing a hand when the results are completely different than what I think they would have been.

Epic bump, but I can see how it's interesting to come back to this topic.

I don't know if Pokerstars still uses a static deck, I assume they do. But here's what I think the most important thing to get your head around is: it doesn't matter, not one little bit.

If you're thinking about what the cards "would" have been, then you're being results-oriented, and that's absolutely the wrong way to think about poker.

If you're making a decision on the flop, the turn could be any one of the 47 remaining cards that you haven't seen yet. You don't know what it will be, so it should have no bearing on your decision - what matters is all the other information you have in terms of position, bet sizes, opponent tendencies, etc.

Whether the turn card was selected by the RNG before the start of the hand or immediately before it's dealt makes absolutely no difference to your decision making process. And it's making the best possible decisions that's the key to being successful at poker.

iwont20 · Sep 20, 2017

I believe that on PS the next cards partially depend on something like how long it takes to make a decision, your mouse's movement and etc.

Rational Madman · Sep 20, 2017

well i play pokerstars so i'm proud that the site has the truest rng

centaurix · Sep 21, 2017

I was impressed by the laser system that Pokerstars uses in the video above posted by Rich. But this really points out another big aspect of the random number systems, which is that Pokerstars while using a static shuffle, they also use a "dynamic" generator. So, their laser system operates in real time and generates on the spot on demand. Other random number generators are seed-based and use hashing algorithms to randomize everything. In these system, every card that will ever be dealt is set in stone ahead of time in some respect. I'm not really convinced at all their is an advantage to static noise generation like the laser system in comparison to hash algorithms.

The entire future of all cards with a hashing algorithm is set in stone, which I think is kind of cool. Of course if the coder walks away with the algorithm he could use it to an advantage depending on how everything is done.

Its like a free-will vs destiny question.

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When are the cards generated in online games?

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