When is a hand dead?

OzExorcist · Aug 23, 2009

I've seen this come up a lot lately, and thought a post on it might be useful. Mostly it'll apply to live poker but here goes.

Lots of people have been asking "Isn't the player X's hand dead because he did Y?"

Examples include:

- "Player X showed his cards to the person next to him. Shouldn't his hand be dead?"

- "Player X verbally agreed to check down with Player Y while Player Z was all in. Their hands should be dead, right?"

- "Player X acted out of turn, is his hand dead?"

The answer, almost always, is an emphatic NO. Situations like the ones above are definitely instances of players breaking the rules, but they shouldn't result in a hand being declared dead. The players may be subject to a penalty (having to sit out for a round while they get blinded away or something similar) but their cards will still be live for that hand.

There are only four ways a hand can be ruled dead:

1 - The cards touch the muck, either because the player tossed them there or the dealer collected them and put them there. This has to be the case, because once they've touched the muck there can be confusion about exactly which two cards the player had.

2 - The player verbally declares "fold". This has to be the case, because verbal actions are binding.

3 - The clock has been called on a player, and they don't make a decision before the time runs out.

4 - The cards have been pushed forward and released, and the next player has acted on the assumption that the first player has folded. The dealer can rule the hand dead in this situation (note that this rule may be applied differently in different casinos, or dealer discretion may be applied).

If you're play hold 'em*, those are the only four things that can kill a hand. If none of those things has happened, your opponent's hand is LIVE.

Always ask the dealer if you're unsure. It's what we're there for, even if some of us can be grumpy and irritable sometimes.

* Roberts Rules lists a couple of other examples specific to non-hold 'em games - turning your upcards over and mixing them with your down cards in stud, for example.

M33K3R · Aug 24, 2009

Very good explanation for live rules that might be misunderstood by some people.

mets40 · Aug 24, 2009

Great explanation, but probably not very realistic for your common garage/basement Saturday night game.

PurgatoryD · Aug 24, 2009

OzExorcist said:
Player X verbally agreed to check down with Player Y while Player Z was all in.

In a tournament, such a verbal agreement between X and Y can cause Z to lose the hand and be knocked out of the tournament where he might have actually won the hand and still been in the tournament otherwise.

For such a rule break, there's no penalty in the world that's going to get Z back in the game, so that seems highly unfair to player Z, don't you think?

-Dave

white_lytning · Aug 25, 2009

Oz, A hand came up over the weekend that you can probably help me with. I know you deal, so its probably came up before. I have a feeling what the answer is, just would rather check with someone that knows. Sorry for invading this topic, didn't want to start a new one.

2/5 cash. I'm in the cutoff playing against the button and one of the blinds. (the tables all have bet lines that they enforce pretty hard)

I made a bet of $50 with two green chips. The button throws two red ones in, past the line. Button then says "ooo, didn't realize they were green". And pulls the two red chips back out. I didn't say anything right away, wanted to wait to see what would happen. I believe that that action qualifies as a call, but am not positive. The dealer at the table didn't say anything, he seems to be waiting to see what the button did too. And it didn't matter in the end. She took the two reds out, thought for a second then pushed all in. I stacked her in the hand so it ended up not mattering, but Im wondering what would be the case if she did try to take them out. I'm sure I have seen this before, just hasn't happend to me so I didn't really pay attention. If someone puts the wrong chips in, in a calling manner, its the same thing as a call correct?

In the case above, if instead of pushing, the button wanted to fold after putting the $10 in, she would be committed to the $50 call right?

OzExorcist · Aug 27, 2009

dave18 said:
In a tournament, such a verbal agreement between X and Y can cause Z to lose the hand and be knocked out of the tournament where he might have actually won the hand and still been in the tournament otherwise.

For such a rule break, there's no penalty in the world that's going to get Z back in the game, so that seems highly unfair to player Z, don't you think?

Absolutely it's unfair to Player Z, which is why there are rules against it and both players X and Y should be given a penalty. Unfortunately though, once those players have chosen to break the rule there's really nothing that can undo it.

Killing their hands so that Player Z automatically wins the pot might be a fairer way of handling the situation from his point of view, but then there's a table (and potentially room) full of other players who might be adversely affected by his staying in who didn't do anything wrong either. Which means, I think, that this is just one of those gross situations where someone will always be hard done by.

white_lytning said:
In the case above, if instead of pushing, the button wanted to fold after putting the $10 in, she would be committed to the $50 call right?

I'd have ruled that a call where they'd be committed to putting in the $50. Robert's Rules backs that one up:

13. A player who bets or calls by releasing chips into the pot is bound by that action and must make the amount of the wager correct. (This also applies right before the showdown when putting chips into the pot causes the opponent to show the winning hand before the full amount needed to call has been put into the pot.) However, if you are unaware that the pot has been raised, you may withdraw that money and reconsider your action, provided that no one else has acted after you. At pot-limit or no-limit betting, if there is a gross misunderstanding concerning the amount of the wager, see Section 14, Rule 8.

I find a couple of other things about that hand interesting though:

1 - The dealer should have been announcing the action as it happens. When you made your bet, the dealer should've told the button "$50 to call" or something to that effect. So unless the button is deaf, they shouldn't have been surprised that the bet was $50 and it shouldn't have mattered if it was made with two green chips or ten red ones.

2 - I'm surprised the dealer just allowed the button to go all in after removing the two red chips. If it were me, I'd have ruled that as a call and only a call. Neither their verbal statements or physical actions suggested that they really meant to go all in.

Of course if you as the other player in the hand tell me you're OK with them going all in... meh, you're all big kids and I guess I can allow it. I don't work for a casino though, and some casinos might have different ideas about dealer discretion in that situation given the possibility that the losing player in the hand could protest afterwards and claim that the rules were broken in the hand and the dealer should never have allowed it regardless of any agreement between the players.

Hope that helps

arahel_jazz · Aug 27, 2009

OzExorcist said:
2 - I'm surprised the dealer just allowed the button to go all in after removing the two red chips. If it were me, I'd have ruled that as a call and only a call. Neither their verbal statements or physical actions suggested that they really meant to go all in.

I've been in that exact situation and the player was told by the dealer that they could only call because they did not verbalize anything when they released their chips. Therefore, it was a presumed call with the wrong amount becaue of a previous bet/raise, and when the player pulled back his chips, he should have either called or folded. All-in should not have been permitted IMO.

PurgatoryD · Aug 27, 2009

OzExorcist said:
Absolutely it's unfair to Player Z, which is why there are rules against it and both players X and Y should be given a penalty.

So what kind of penalty is typically given? Does this kind of situation come up often?

OzExorcist said:
Killing their hands so that Player Z automatically wins the pot might be a fairer way of handling the situation from his point of view, but then there's a table (and potentially room) full of other players who might be adversely affected by his staying in who didn't do anything wrong either.

Yeah, I guess in an indirect way these other players may be harmed. But if player Z had a legitimate way of winning the hand had the rule break not occurred, then all these other players may have been "harmed" just the same. Maybe the rule should state that the hand for player Z is compared to the hands for players X and Y; if Z could not have beaten either X or Y, then fine, Z is out. But if he could have beaten just one of the hands, then the pot is his.

OzExorcist said:
this is just one of those gross situations where someone will always be hard done by.

I suppose so. Hopefully it doesn't happen that much in actual play. Either way, it's nice to know what the actual rule states, so thanks for posting it! Then you know at a live table what you should stand for and what you just have to let go.

-Dave

OzExorcist · Aug 27, 2009

dave18 said:
So what kind of penalty is typically given? Does this kind of situation come up often?

That specific situation doesn't come up too often (at least, not in casinos), because it's rare to find two players that are that stupid.

Penalties are usually given in the form of having to sit out (while still having your stack blinded out) for a period of time, though in extreme cases or where there's been repeat violations the player can be ejected from the tournament and their chips removed from play.

PurgatoryD · Aug 27, 2009

OzExorcist said:
That specific situation doesn't come up too often (at least, not in casinos), because it's rare to find two players that are that stupid.

LOL! Well, that's good to hear. And it makes sense. If you know how to play, you're just not going to talk about something like that.

OzExorcist said:
Penalties are usually given in the form of having to sit out (while still having your stack blinded out) for a period of time, though in extreme cases or where there's been repeat violations the player can be ejected from the tournament and their chips removed from play.

Wow, that is pretty harsh. But at least it's covered. The last thing any of us wants is someone cheating and getting ahead because of it. We all want a fair game!

Thanks for all your help!

-Dave

white_lytning · Aug 28, 2009

Oz, could have used a good dealer yesterday. I am generally a nice guy at the tables, keep to myself and play the game. I respect the dealers, tip, and am nice to them. Yesterday something came up that I have never had to deal with, and I blame part of it on the dealer.

2/5 cash again. I make a raise to $25 pre-flop, (with a green chip) with queens and the guy sitting after me calls. The dealer, after the guy calls, points to the chip and says "how much was this". I tell him 25 and he brings out the flop.

K, Q, 10. No suits to worry about.

I check the flop looking for the guy to bet, he is a crazy guy that plays any two cards. I'm not worried he flopped the straight at all. He would have raised with AJ, J,9 is a small possible. but probly not. Looking to check raise here. Anyway, He checks behind me.

Next card is a nothing, a 3 or a 4. I take a second to count my chips, look and figure out how much to bet. I look at my opponent and he checks out of turn, dealer burns and turns a J. (now all hell breaks loose)

I say "wow, I never checked, he checked out of turn, I just went like this..and showed him the way i took my green chips off of the reds." Dealer doesn't say a word at this point and kinda just looks confused. Opponent says, what do you got, like hes gonna give up on the hand, because of the mistake. I flip my queens and he bets 40.

I say, "You got to be kidding me." then I looked over at the dealer for help. Dealer says the bets stands and says I checked again. " I couldn't stay calm any more and was going a little crazy, especially with a bet from the other dude after pretending he was gonna show his hand and check it down after the confusion. I never checked the turn or the river. I have never been so mad at a card table. At the player and the dealer. I call the 40 because I don't care at this point, just want this mess to be over with, he shows a 9 7 to make the straight. (slow rolled me at the end too)

I'm enraged at this point and cursing at the guy next to me. Telling him hes...trash. And that his kind of play and antics are pathetic. The dealer tells me after he chips the guy the pot that I could have had the jack put back in if i had spoken up. That tipped me past the edge. Went off on him after that. He was half asleep and not paying attention. I did speak up. I never checked. He never gave me the option to do that at the time. so on and so on in a much meaner and more abusive manner than I am describing here.

Anyway. I took a nice little break after that hand to cool off. I wasn't so upset about the money, I was more upset that the guy acted like that, and that the dealer didn't help me. Came back to the table and was a complete ***** to the guy that beat me. Called time on him anytime he had to make a decision. Called floor anytime he looked at his cell phone (there is a cell phone policy and a players' hand is dead anytime someone looks at their phone. ) Laughed anytime he lost a hand (he went on to lose about $600 in the next few hours). I honestly think I would have fought him if it came to that. Very disrespectful, and I take it personally.

A terrible day at the tables yesterday.

jolubman · Aug 28, 2009

These are good rules but should not apply to all games. Games at the kitchen table may be much looser and these rules would be out of place.

PurgatoryD · Aug 28, 2009

white_lytning said:
A terrible day at the tables yesterday.

Wow, you're not kidding! It sounds like with all the commotion, you would have a floor manager or someone over there to sort it all out. Did no one come over? If so, what did they have to say about it?

white_lytning said:
Called time on him anytime he had to make a decision.

So I've only played live in a casino a few times. How does that work? Do you call time and then the clock starts, or do you call time after a certain time period has expired? Is there a standard time limit? I've never seen this come into play. Was his hand ever killed due to time?

white_lytning said:
Called floor anytime he looked at his cell phone (there is a cell phone policy and a players' hand is dead anytime someone looks at their phone. )

Wow, so did they kill his hand? He probably wanted to kill you!

OK, honestly, was this guy bigger than you or not? To me, poker should never degrade into a fist fight, but I could see the both of you ready to go at each other. Dang, what a night of poker. I'd be watching my back as I left that place.

You sure get more excitement than just playing on the Internet! Thanks for sharing. Maybe next time stand up and motion for the dealer to stop if he's just letting something like that "slide by".

Better luck to you next time!

-Dave

OzExorcist · Aug 28, 2009

dave18 said:
So I've only played live in a casino a few times. How does that work? Do you call time and then the clock starts, or do you call time after a certain time period has expired? Is there a standard time limit? I've never seen this come into play. Was his hand ever killed due to time?

Once someone has called for a clock the floor person has to be called over, they'll inform the player that they have one minute to act and then count it down for them. Their hand is dead if they still haven't made a decision after that time.

Players aren't allowed to call for the clock unless a "reasonable" amount of time has passed already though. You can't call it if the person's only been thinking for 20 seconds.

As for white_lytning's situation... ouch, that's brutal. Massive dealer incompetence FTL.

Once there's been action on the jack (like your opponent's bet) it can't be taken back. Plus there's not really much that can be done to fix it anyway because the jack is the correct river card and there's no real way around that. If he'd failed to burn or burned two cards by accident it's a different story.

And I'm sorry to say it, but you got just plain angle shot with the river bet, there's not really much the dealer can do about it. Particularly in a messy situation like that, never turn your cards up until the dealer asks you to.

Dealers make mistakes. I know I make them sometimes. But the way this one was handled sounds really bad.

white_lytning · Aug 28, 2009

And I'm sorry to say it, but you got just plain angle shot with the river bet, there's not really much the dealer can do about it. Particularly in a messy situation like that, never turn your cards up until the dealer asks you to.

Yeah. I feel stupid thinking back on the situation now that some time has passed. I have so much experience at the table that I should not have reacted the way I did. I got so heated that I couldn't think rationally about the situation. I just wanted it fixed, and to get it over with.

I made a few mistakes. I should have called for the floor the minute he turned over the jack. I'm pretty sure the casinos policy is to shuffle the card back into the deck and then deal a new turn card.

Even when that didn't happen the fact that I was dumb enough to show my hand is pathetic. Especially before making sure the action was dead. Just because most people don't play like this guy, doesn't mean everyone won't.

I have given guys money back after a card was exposed that changed a hand. I am usually a decent respectable player, just had a blow up and completely lost my mind.

Even with dealers like this, and players like this I should have been the better and more knowledgeable person. I admit that there were three parties at fault. The opponent, the dealer, and me.

Thanks for the comments.

mimi · Aug 28, 2009

There is a website with the tournament directors' rules posted on it. I haven't checked it lately and I don't recall if all these rules are mentioned. Good points to remember, though, because they are usually declared as stated above.

lektrikguy · Aug 29, 2009

mets40 said:
Great explanation, but probably not very realistic for your common garage/basement Saturday night game.

It's actually right on the money for the home games I play in. You have to set the rules to keep peace especially when money's involved.

OzExorcist · Aug 29, 2009

mimi said:
There is a website with the tournament directors' rules posted on it. I haven't checked it lately and I don't recall if all these rules are mentioned. Good points to remember, though, because they are usually declared as stated above.

That'd be www.pokertda.com and their rules cover most of the situations in my original post. You have to sign up to get anything from their website these days though.

damon789 · Aug 29, 2009

well done

VEry nice Oz, im playing live this Sat at the Adelaide Cas tx for the brush up

When is a hand dead?

OzExorcist

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M33K3R

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