WHAT SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED - live casino cash game

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p_for_pro

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hi , i was playing in a cash game at casino table blinds were £1 and £2... i had 10c 7c ... the flop came qc 2d kc... the pot had gone up to £50.. he raised £15 i called.. next card 5c i had got my flush and was very confidednt there was 3 players in hand.. i raised £15 more.. and one guy folded another called me.. than came 2h... they guy put another £20 in pot and thats all he had left ... and he actually said to me and every heared him say he had queen and 2 and hit his full house on the last card.. the manager also heard him say that.. i didnt know you could say that.. and i took it as he was bluffing and went all in with my flush the pot was £140 so i had to call another 20.. and he did have what he said.. i was wondering is he allowed to say what he had and what should have happened.. its been going through my head.. i think after the hand some one took him aside and explained something to him not sure what

sorry about my grammer
 
LarkMarlow

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Though I've never encountered this myself, I do remember that in the wsop ME that Jamie Gold won he said what he had in the hole many, many times. His tactic was driving some of the players crazy, but he was never told to stop. So, at the WSOP at least, this practice is allowed.
 
seachicken

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It all depends on the house rules. I do not believe it is against the rules or any kind of serious infraction in most games. I have played in one tournament where you could not talk about the two cards you held until all cards were mucked or at the show down. I don't remember the exact punishment but i think it was only a time out for the first infraction.
 
naruto_miu

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Though I've never encountered this myself, I do remember that in the WSOP ME that Jamie Gold won he said what he had in the hole many, many times. His tactic was driving some of the players crazy, but he was never told to stop. So, at the WSOP at least, this practice is allowed.


Well with Jamie Gold A) He never stated his hands During the actually hand, except in Cases where he would make a reference to his hand, Saying he had the Top Top, but he would never actually state his actual hand..

Also as for the O.P I think it depends on the actual Casino itself, I mean...For instance, I know in Lac Lamy Quebec, the casino here, If you state your hand during a hand, while the hand is in play, it's the same as your cards being on the ground and there-fore=a dead hand, and you lose the pot....
 
Tammy

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I'll be interested in what Oz has to say about this if he sees the thread. I think next time you should ask what the house rules are, or if they have them posted (I'm sure they probably do) make sure to read and familiarize yourself with them, so you'll know when these little situations happen what you can do.
 
natsgrampy

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I was in a live tourney just yesterday at Mohegan Sun and during a hand, a player stated what he had in his hand, during the hand, and the floor was called. He said he wasn't saying what he had, rather, what he thought the other player had. I was sitting right next to him, and this was not the case. The floor took his word and play was allowed.

If, in fact he had,and the floor was convinced of this, he would have received a one round penalty and his hand mucked same as if it were turned over or exposed.

You can go online and check the actual rules for this casino. They are very explicit regarding "telling" what you are holding during the hand.
 
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Always thought the rule was you could lie but couldn't tell the truth i.e. couldn't state your hand even verbally.
 
natsgrampy

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I think next time you should ask what the house rules are, or if they have them posted (I'm sure they probably do) make sure to read and familiarize yourself with them, so you'll know when these little situations happen what you can do.[/quote]
I play at Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods and the rules of the game are posted on their websites and take about 10-15 minutes to review before going there.
 
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Yes you can definitely say what you have in a hand. People do it at the tables. I personally don't do this because I just don't see there being a whole lot to gain, but some see it differently I suppose. As played, I would have called if I were you too. I am never going to turn down those kinds of pot odds. You were getting like 8 to 1 on your call. Of nothing else you bought some information about your opponent on the cheap.
 
OzExorcist

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This one really depends on house rules where you're playing. Despite how stupid it is some venues really do have a rule that says you can't tell the truth about your hand. I've always thought it was more common in tournaments but there's no reason it couldn't be applied to cash games.

Safest thing to do if you're not sure is never tell the truth about your own hand before showdown and always assume the rule ISN'T in place with respect to your opponents. Assuming your opponents 1: know the rule and 2: are actually obeying it can lead to faulty conclusions like the one described in the OP.

Don't read anything about rules into Jamie Gold's performance at the 2006 WSOP, by the way. He broke a bunch of technical rules including exposing cards during a hand. He also told the truth about his hands, like in the infamous "top top" example (which tells your opponent your exact hand other than suits). IIRC the WSOP had a rule against telling the truth at the time and for all I know it still does. The tournament director chose to let his infringements slide at the time. Matt Savage has since said that if he was the director Gold would have been penalised.
 
OzExorcist

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(Warning: long post follows)

Actually, now that I look through the different rulebooks it seems not being allowed to "disclose the content of a hand" is the norm rather than the exception.

Note though that this isn't necessarily the same as telling the truth about your hand. Whether telling the truth about your hand without physically turning the cards over counts as disclosing it is, I guess, up to the individual floor person or tournament director but if they wanted to be nitty about it the case could certainly be made.

Anyhow, here's the relevant sections from three different sources (emphasis / comments added by me, obv).

Robert's Rules section 1, Proper Behaviour, Poker Etiquitte:

The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator:​
(Bunch of different things, including...) Revealing the contents of a live hand in a multihanded pot before the betting is complete.​
Robert's Rules section 15, Tournaments:

22. Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player in a multihanded pot may not show any cards during a deal. Heads-up, a player may not show any cards unless the event has only two remaining players, or is winner-take-all. If a player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his hand will not be ruled dead). Verbally stating one’s hand during the play may be penalized.
Poker Tournament Director's Association Rules:

41. No Disclosure​
Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not:​
1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.

The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.​
2011 WSOP Rules:

Rule 95: Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, whether in a hand or not, players may not a.) Disclose contents of live or folded hands, b.) Advise or criticize play before the action is completed, or c.) Read a hand that hasn’t been tabled. While in a hand, players may not a) discuss hands or strategy with any spectator, or b) seek or receive consultation from an outside source. The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced. Players who violate this rule are subject to penalty in accordance with Rules 38, 94, and 98.​
And just for laughs, here's the rule from my local casino (which hosts the Aussie Millions and a few other major international tournaments)

Crown Casino Poker Tournament Terms and Conditions:

7.1 The Tournament Director may penalize any entrant who fails to comply with these terms and conditions or whose behaviour is assessed as being detrimental to the integrity or the proper conduct of the tournament, including but not limited to the following examples:​
(Some other stuff, then) 7.1.3 An entrant showing his/her card(s) or verbally advising the content of his/her hand to another entrant(s) when all action for that round is not complete.​
How often these rules are actually enforced and how harsh the penalties are is another question entirely, of course. "May be subject to penalty" is vague enough in itself.

Remember too that, as mentioned above, these rules don't make specific reference to "telling the truth" about your hand - it's instead left to the discretion of the tournament director or floor person to decide whether telling the truth constitutes disclosure (though the Crown rule and Robert's Rules tournament sections specifically mention verbal statements).

These are the current versions of the rules, BTW, and I'm lead to believe that previous versions did make specific reference to not being allowed to tell the truth. Public rants by Mike Caro and Steve Zolotow, among others, apparently resulted in them being changed to something like the versions you see above.
 
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p_for_pro

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thank you very much "Ozexorcist" i have a much better idea now and i will be asking my local casino about the rules they have... im just getting into poker .. and have started to play live tounaments in my local casino and cash games.. i find poker gives you emotions that you dont feel in other situations.. its not just the money side of it.. its actually just the sport it self of playing... for example i would play a tounament int he casino which would be 75pounds freezeout and not make it in to the money and i would play one at my university which is a 5 pounds one.. and get the same emotions .. i just hope i can make a part time living out of it one day or even make money to buy things i would not normally get chance to..
 
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