What does it take to be a pro?

CrockPot

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First off I'd prefer answers from pros and semi pros mainly but if your not either, which I expect most not to be I still wouldn't mind hearing your opinions! With that said I really want to know what it takes to be a pro. It is my dream and I think for me it is a reasonable dream, here is why. First I'm still young I have nothing huge tying me down like a wife or kids. If I wanted to I could grab some clothes, money, and my other valuables get in my truck and be in Vegas in 3-4 days. But its also not like I plan on going pro tomorrow I'm thinking more along the lines of the next 2-5 years. By then I'll have enough money saved up, and studied enough to finally turn my dream to reality. Also poker is my everything, yes I'm a no life and I think that will also help me in my success. I'm not an addict though I don't always think poker, poker, poker. There are other things on my mind like sex, money, friends, family. If I didn't think poker was profitable I would only play it every once in a while for fun. Below I'm going to list things I have or have done that seem important in this goal.
1. Experience- I've been playing poker since I was 15 and became serious with it at 16. I've played a little live but mostly online.
2. I'm strong emotionally I can hide my feelings and have been doing so for years my temper doesn't flare up and I haven't cussed anyone out since I was a kid. Emotion doesn't effect my judgment.
3. I've done my homework, I've read two books The Poker Mindset and Texas Hold'em odds an probabilities. I plan on reading more in the future. I have read countless internet post and articles on 2+2 and Cards Chat. I have also watched many instructional videos.
4. I'm my only support. I can't tell you how many people have tried to discourage me from poker, to many to count. I don't have one single supporter besides myself and that is what drives me to take it to the next level.
5. I'm good at math. All throughout school I was always in advanced math classes earning extra math credits in high school.
6. I'm ITM 33.2% of the time. I understand that to be a good rate also.
7. I know many games not just hold'em. EX. 5 card draw, 7 stud, Omaha, Irish, 2-7 triple and single draw, and a few others I'm forgetting about at the moment.
8. All my knowledge of poker is self taught, like books, videos, etc. nobody specifically showed me anything.
9. I have plenty of time to invest into learning new things about the game.
10. I know things already like polarizing range, pot odds, statistics, outs, BRM etc.
11. I'm a winning player I've won more than I've lost and I'm not just on some epic heater believe me I've lost my whole roll due to bad brm but I've fixed that since then. And I've dealt with a few nasty down swings.
That's all I can think of now but I will think of more later and add them.
So what are things I still need to learn and go over in time before I go pro and any advice that would be helpful would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance!!!
 
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I'm not a pro but I will throw a few things out here.

You say you have been playing serious since 16. How old are you now?

Are you planning on playing online or live or mixture of both? This might mean moving to a state where online is legal.

How many hours do you play and study a week?

What's you plan for health insurance?

How about retirement?

What's you backup plan if poker doesn't work and what are you going to say on a job interview for the missing job info on your resume?

Is that 33.2% your online MTT stat? Most of the top online MTT players are only 15-20% ITM.

I'm not trying to be negative just giving you some things to think about. Personally if I was in your situation and was wanting to be a pro in 2-5 years I'd probably move to a state like Nevada and get a normal job and play online poker on the side and see how the games are. Good luck.
 
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It's hard to start on on tournaments. Even pros don't cash most of the time, so if you don't have a big bankroll or a backer, that would rough.

Dan Harrington suggests that you take advantage of low stakes online to play tens of thousands of hands and move up gradually. Live, the $1/$2 is as low as it gets. Online, you can practice at much lower stakes. Online, you can use tracking software like Poker Tracker or Holdem Manager to study your hands and spot your weaknesses. Because of these things, the equivalent stakes live is a much weaker game than online.

So my suggestion is before moving to Las Vegas, pay some dues and get experience.
 
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I see you very aspired to play poker a lot. What someone I knew did was invest about $10 of their bankroll to try to play an EPT (European Poker Tour) main event. He did just that by some extraordinary luck and cashed. Try it with the wsop or some event. You might just get lucky.

For the ITM figure, the questions I have are what do you play, how many SnG's/MTT's are in the sample and what is your ROI? Stakes don't matter that much for now, you can tweak it later.

Buying programs like Tablescan Turbo in addition to Holdem Manager or Pokertracker will help a lot. It scans the tables very quickly and labels people as fish (for cash games) so you can choose the tables you want. Also maybe try out Leak Buster (I have not tried it myself). It claims to scan your play and pick where you are losing money the most.

Try getting a small job like working at your local Walmart or shopping centre. It will give you some money you can happily fall back on as well as funding your poker.

I think we have all experienced number four before.
 
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Reading books and learning wont be enough you need to drill it all in practice practice read watch the same stuff till you absorb everything if it takes 7 times so be it.

you also need a business mind since your self employed you need to know that certain deciisions will generate x amount of money over your annul calander year.

Its tough out there man.
Its far more easier to become rich by working than playing poker. Every good poker player is obsessed they learn practice evaluate play.

people that work dont have the same desire in the sales industry thats why its so easy to gain an edge over compirors live sleep eat sales make money progress step up save invest no chance of going broke either
 
suby_rafael

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U seem to have started playing poker at quite a young age. By reading your complete post i get the impression that you are a pro already and either you are too modest to admit it, or you are naive, or u just wanted to post a thread for the sake of it. Most people don't have much of a clue while playing poker. You my friend on the other hand are a smart, seriously dedicated and the most important of all you've enjoyed success for a long period of time. In my mind you are a PRO already. :)
 
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you do seem to have all the main concepts grasped.
only thing I would add is find players even a group to discuss strategy with weekly through skype and exchange insights on hand history and all the important things

Based on your opening post I don't see any reason at your age if you work hard and keep discipline that you cant become pro.
 
CrockPot

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Thanks for all the support and advice everyone! I'm going to respond to each post individually as well but It may take some time.
 
dj11

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To answer the thread title question;

A very large bankroll, or group of backers, and the ability to lose it all.
 
curtinsea

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Let me break it down . . . .

winrate x stakes x volume = earnings

so for starters, you have to have a solid win rate over a large sample size. For cash game players, 6bb/100 hands is the standard I've seen thrown around the most. 100K would be considered a large sample size (at least by me).

Now plug some numbers in. Let's say you need to make $60K/yr, a reasonable living for a card player. How do we get there? Let's assume we are getting that 6bb/100 playing NL200 and grinding 2000 hands per day. 6x20x2= $240/day. Five days a week = $1200/wk, 50 weeks a year (take two off for vacation why don't you) and voila! You have made $60k/yr
 
CrockPot

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I'm not a pro but I will throw a few things out here.

You say you have been playing serious since 16. How old are you now?

Are you planning on playing online or live or mixture of both? This might mean moving to a state where online is legal.

How many hours do you play and study a week?

What's you plan for health insurance?

How about retirement?

What's you backup plan if poker doesn't work and what are you going to say on a job interview for the missing job info on your resume?

Is that 33.2% your online MTT stat? Most of the top online MTT players are only 15-20% ITM.

I'm not trying to be negative just giving you some things to think about. Personally if I was in your situation and was wanting to be a pro in 2-5 years I'd probably move to a state like Nevada and get a normal job and play online poker on the side and see how the games are. Good luck.
Ok so I'm planning on playing both online (which I do already) and live. I've only played live a few times I really like the idea of facing your opponent, making friends, and being in the casino atmosphere. As well as playing from the comfort of home. So I'll be planning on playing both. I live in Kentucky currently so live poker is illegal and online poker is sort of a no no but not technically illegal. Though I can go right across the river to Cincinnati's Horseshoe casino and several riverboat casinos in Indiana. So live poker is only 20-30 minutes away from me. But eventually I would like to move to Las Vegas. I'm not currently sure how many hours I play and study but its a lot, As of now I will start keeping track so far today, I've played 0 but am going to in a few hours. I've watched an episode of the WPT, read a few poker news articles and looked through the forums so I've studied about 2 hrs. And have currently had about 5 hours of free time. Health insurance I haven't really thought about I'm covered now but will start thinking about that towards the beginning of going pro (like 6 months prior), thanks for reminding me about that by the way. As for retirement, I like to think of Doyle Brunson in this situation and with any luck I'd still be playing at his age but I'm not super concerned about that at this moment I don't think I'd ever want to retire but I know that may change as I get older so I will be saving small amounts at first with gradual increase. I have two back up plans one would be to go through college and get a business degree. The other would be to become a truck driver. My grandpa was a truck driver and I think that would be okay for me because you still get to travel and have adventures as well as be your own boss. Yes 33.2% is my online MTT ITM. It had a big jump recently when I placed third in a tourney. I've been doing well recently I've kinda been on a bit of a heater so that probably explains the above par percentage. Don't worry you didn't come across as negative at all but you did come across as helpful so thanks! Also I thought about being a dealer as a day job until I lifted off making enough to completely support myself. So I guess that's also a third back up plan.
 
Himanshu

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I guess u need a lot of patience and good amount of money to invest in the game.
There are other things that some players do some don't some are good at reading their opponents some are good at math of the game.
BTW you need to be lucky to win at poker as well.
 
CrockPot

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It's hard to start on on tournaments. Even pros don't cash most of the time, so if you don't have a big bankroll or a backer, that would rough.

Dan Harrington suggests that you take advantage of low stakes online to play tens of thousands of hands and move up gradually. Live, the $1/$2 is as low as it gets. Online, you can practice at much lower stakes. Online, you can use tracking software like Poker Tracker or Holdem Manager to study your hands and spot your weaknesses. Because of these things, the equivalent stakes live is a much weaker game than online.

So my suggestion is before moving to Las Vegas, pay some dues and get experience.
Ok, so I plan on mainly being a cash game player, with tourneys in the mix. In the next years up until I go pro I will be saving as much as possible to have a healthy BR. At first I think ill manly be playing online as well, but if the online market gets legalized and makes a comeback then I'd be playing online at least 90% of the time. As for online software I'm going to look into that even though its not very important because I play on Bovada and those types of softwares don't work with Bovada but like I said before if say Full Tilt, pokerstars, or party poker make a comeback to the U.S. everywhere then I'll definitely use them. Software will of course be something that i'll need if I move to Nevada because then I can use it on wsop.com and ultimatepoker.com...Thanks for the feedback!

I'm going to go play online now so I'll respond to your post later tonight or tomorrow. Once again thanks!
 
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CrockPot

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I see you very aspired to play poker a lot. What someone I knew did was invest about $10 of their bankroll to try to play an EPT (European Poker Tour) main event. He did just that by some extraordinary luck and cashed. Try it with the WSOP or some event. You might just get lucky.

For the ITM figure, the questions I have are what do you play, how many SnG's/MTT's are in the sample and what is your ROI? Stakes don't matter that much for now, you can tweak it later.

Buying programs like Tablescan Turbo in addition to Holdem Manager or Pokertracker will help a lot. It scans the tables very quickly and labels people as fish (for cash games) so you can choose the tables you want. Also maybe try out Leak Buster (I have not tried it myself). It claims to scan your play and pick where you are losing money the most.

Try getting a small job like working at your local Walmart or shopping centre. It will give you some money you can happily fall back on as well as funding your poker.

I think we have all experienced number four before.
So I mostly play PLO and NLHE for tourneys and for cash games I play any of the games I listed with the exception of 5 card draw. There are no SnG's in the sample. My ROI is roughly the same as my ITM, I've tracked it all via Microsoft Excel and its on my home computer (I'm on my laptop), but I'll check and confirm that later. I will definitely be looking into software in the future. I already have a job so that's taken care of and hopefully I'll have enough money saved up by the time I go pro.Thanks for your advice!

Reading books and learning wont be enough you need to drill it all in practice practice read watch the same stuff till you absorb everything if it takes 7 times so be it.

you also need a business mind since your self employed you need to know that certain deciisions will generate x amount of money over your annul calander year.

Its tough out there man.
Its far more easier to become rich by working than playing poker. Every good poker player is obsessed they learn practice evaluate play.

people that work dont have the same desire in the sales industry thats why its so easy to gain an edge over compirors live sleep eat sales make money progress step up save invest no chance of going broke either
I plan to study more in the coming years as well as go over the things I already know. As for having a business mind I know I've already got that I've always been a hustler and that's just not my opinion a few people have said that about me. I always wanted to run a business before I found poker and back in high school I was a bit of a little loan shark haha. I think business is kind of in my blood, my grandfather owned a car lot, my dad owned an alarm company before my parents got a divorce, my moms and accountant, my cousin owns a vending company, and my great great grandfather had a monopoly on feed stores within a 50 mile radius of his town. It's kind of funny all that business in my background and I'm still just your average middle class guy. But I'd rather make something of myself than have it handed to me anyway. As for just working like most people I don't think I could do it, its just not for me you know? Before poker I had no direction I was living day by day with no ambition. Now though I have a goal and it feels great! Thanks for your feedback and advice!
 
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I remodeled a bathroom for a pro poker player once. He had charts in picture frames all over the house; one at the end of the hall before the bedroom door so he glanced at it every time he went to the bedroom, one on the bathroom door inside and out each, one beside the bookshelf, one at the coffeemaker, etc.

What made me (a little) better was sitting beside a pro while he played online, and listening to him break his strategies down card by card by card for hours/days/weeks. Maybe you could find a mentor?
 
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What made me (a little) better was sitting beside a pro while he played online, and listening to him break his strategies down card by card by card for hours/days/weeks. Maybe you could find a mentor?
That's a good suggestion. Maybe even a friend with similar ambitions. Studying together can keep it more intense and more fun.
 
wanderingthehall

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If you wanted to focus on online play, I think the best option is to move to mexico. There is a thread here of interviews with pros that have established residency in other countries to grind on better options such as stars. I think grinding online on non-US sites is the best way to earn money.

It sounds like your focus is really on live poker in Vegas. I'm from Vegas, and it's 90% like any other city. You could go ahead and move there and get a job while feeling out the poker scene. Dealing is a hard job to get, but the dealers learn quite a bit from watching the play at their tables.
 
zegaum

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I have studied, read and practiced enough poker. From what you posted, I believe you're a pro, just do not want to admit it. What remains perhaps definitely fit into this group is driven in some good tournaments, and be able to create (and maintain) a considerable bank, enabling it to deal with the downs.
 
mange1234

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Turning Pro

What does it take to be a poker pro: It appears that one needs two things to be a pro, first, be a good poker player, and secondly, have a good bank roll.

I guess, also, have the time to dedicate to your new profession.

Me, I have none of these requirements. lol

Good luck if you decide to go pro. I'm sure you will make it big.

mike
 
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Yes. really is a lot of work to get Pro. But you seem to have found the recipe for success ... I play for a few years and hope to get as high once who knows maybe we will see live tournament and we will remember this discussion :)))) Good luck to all
 
KoRnholio

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Sounds like you have a pretty solid background/personality for poker. Although do keep in mind that knowing something isn't the same as being able to put it into practice for yourself.

Virtually every poker player (winning, breakeven and losing) KNOWS about bankroll management. But a very small percentage are good at sticking to it. Maybe because they get bored grinding out profit in smaller games, or convincing themselves that they are ready to move up before they actually are ready.
 
CrockPot

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U seem to have started playing poker at quite a young age. By reading your complete post i get the impression that you are a pro already and either you are too modest to admit it, or you are naive, or u just wanted to post a thread for the sake of it. Most people don't have much of a clue while playing poker. You my friend on the other hand are a smart, seriously dedicated and the most important of all you've enjoyed success for a long period of time. In my mind you are a PRO already. :)
Thanks a lot for all the support and encouragement! I must tell you I read your post a few times yesterday, because I liked it so much, every time it filled me with confidence! I read it before I played online also yesterday and crushed the table, making the most money I've made in about 2 weeks! I wish I were secretly a pro but who knows, with any luck one day I will be a pro and a very successful on at that. Thanks again for the confidence boost!

you do seem to have all the main concepts grasped.
only thing I would add is find players even a group to discuss strategy with weekly through skype and exchange insights on hand history and all the important things

Based on your opening post I don't see any reason at your age if you work hard and keep discipline that you cant become pro.
Thanks, I'm still going to be looking over the main concepts occasionally to help build a strong foundation. I don't really know anyone that likes poker in the slightest bit, but I think being active on this site and other forums will help me change that. I will continue to work hard on poker because it is my dream and I can feel it at the end of my grasp, continuing to study and play will bring it in reach.

Let me break it down . . . .

winrate x stakes x volume = earnings

so for starters, you have to have a solid win rate over a large sample size. For cash game players, 6bb/100 hands is the standard I've seen thrown around the most. 100K would be considered a large sample size (at least by me).

Now plug some numbers in. Let's say you need to make $60K/yr, a reasonable living for a card player. How do we get there? Let's assume we are getting that 6bb/100 playing NL200 and grinding 2000 hands per day. 6x20x2= $240/day. Five days a week = $1200/wk, 50 weeks a year (take two off for vacation why don't you) and voila! You have made $60k/yr
Thank you for giving me this formula I'm going to write it down and keep it in my poker binder. Although I do hope I won't have to grind NL200 for a year straight haha. That's the beauty about poker you get what you put into it and get to take a pay raise when you've earned it, not when somebody else decides to give it to you. Thanks for the formula again!
 
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CrockPot

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I remodeled a bathroom for a pro poker player once. He had charts in picture frames all over the house; one at the end of the hall before the bedroom door so he glanced at it every time he went to the bedroom, one on the bathroom door inside and out each, one beside the bookshelf, one at the coffeemaker, etc.

What made me (a little) better was sitting beside a pro while he played online, and listening to him break his strategies down card by card by card for hours/days/weeks. Maybe you could find a mentor?
The charts in picture frames is a good idea I'll write that down to remember as something I should do. I certainly could use a mentor I've been looking for a while but I don't know any serious card players, I guess looking online is my best bet. Thanks for the ideas!

If you wanted to focus on online play, I think the best option is to move to Mexico. There is a thread here of interviews with pros that have established residency in other countries to grind on better options such as stars. I think grinding online on non-US sites is the best way to earn money.

It sounds like your focus is really on live poker in Vegas. I'm from Vegas, and it's 90% like any other city. You could go ahead and move there and get a job while feeling out the poker scene. Dealing is a hard job to get, but the dealers learn quite a bit from watching the play at their tables.
Yeah, I was thinking about moving out of the country when the time comes. I had 3 in mind 1. Australia- It would be my first pick as I could do both live and online in Melbourne. I hear the people are friendly and the country is very clean as well as the nice weather. Also there's no gambling tax!!! Not even for pros!!! So no taxes is very appealing although I still have to pay U.S. taxes for the first 5 years because you have to live in Australia for 5 years before becoming a citizen. 2. London, England- Both online and live are available, no gambling taxes, like in Australia, the only down side is the cold weather :( . 3. canada- for me Canada is about a 2 day drive so I could see my friends and family often, I have a friend that lives in Northern Michigan so he'd be close enough to visit quite often. The bad things about Canada are the cold weather, the poker scene is mostly in Vancouver so I would be strictly online, and I'd be across the country near the great lakes, there's cold weather, and taxes. I don't really know about Mexico I've been there once and didn't really like it, sure there's great weather but also lots of violence, corruption, and I'd have to learn a foreign language. Back in high school I had Spanish class I made A's but never really got it, I remember nothing now. I have no idea if Mexico has casinos so I think living there would also be strictly online. Being a dealer and learning from the play was my exact idea to I forget who but I seen a pro that was a former dealer talking about how other dealers just wanted to get through the day while he was always trying to figure out what everyone had.Thanks for the feedback!

I have studied, read and practiced enough poker. From what you posted, I believe you're a pro, just do not want to admit it. What remains perhaps definitely fit into this group is driven in some good tournaments, and be able to create (and maintain) a considerable bank, enabling it to deal with the downs.
Oh man you got me, I'm secretly Phil Ivey! Nah just kidding but hopefully someday I will be a pro. Thanks for the compliment and advice!

What does it take to be a poker pro: It appears that one needs two things to be a pro, first, be a good poker player, and secondly, have a good bank roll.

I guess, also, have the time to dedicate to your new profession.

Me, I have none of these requirements. lol

Good luck if you decide to go pro. I'm sure you will make it big.

mike
Well Mike, I really feel like I'm a good player so that's requirement 1, as for the bankroll I'm going to be saving up as much as I can in the next 2-5 years, plus I'm already online so that should get taken care of. And I certainly have got a lot of time on my hands so I think I'm in good shape. Don't worry about not having any of the requirements just keep playing and using websites like card chat and you'll be better in no time, I just joined CC this month and I feel like my game has improved already. Once you become better then the money will roll in. So good luck and thanks for the feedback!
 
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Poker Orifice

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I think before knowing I would want to go 'pro' I'd like to see how I'd do putting in ~25hrs./wk. 'part-time' (in hopes of supplementing an income).

I've also read from other's that it's suggested to have 6mos. to 1yr.'s worth of living expenses set aside.


I think one of the most difficult aspects of being a poker pro is the mental aspect of it (dealing with the huge downswongs, dealing with the countless hours of grinding, dealing with the dealing with the other players in live game atmosphere, knowing you NEED to run ok as your livelihood/bills are depending upon it).
And this is even referring to players who are VERY GOOD players (ones who already 'know' they are good)
 
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Matt Vaughan

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8. All my knowledge of poker is self taught, like books, videos, etc. nobody specifically showed me anything.
9. I have plenty of time to invest into learning new things about the game.
10. I know things already like polarizing range, pot odds, statistics, outs, BRM etc.
11. I'm a winning player I've won more than I've lost and I'm not just on some epic heater believe me I've lost my whole roll due to bad brm but I've fixed that since then. And I've dealt with a few nasty down swings.
That's all I can think of now but I will think of more later and add them.
So what are things I still need to learn and go over in time before I go pro and any advice that would be helpful would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance!!!

The fact that you speak about poker concepts in this way "I know these things," as well as your poker experiences, tells me you're probably not ready to go pro.

I see nothing in your post about practicality: cost of living, quality of life you want, what you've actually done to start moving toward your goals, or any kind of game plan.

And that's all ignoring the fact that I see no proof in this post that you're even a winning player. I don't mean to be harsh, but saying "I know I'm a winner, and not on a heater," is meaningless. Post some numbers, how much volume have you played in your life, and how much money have you made? I know you're not planning on leaving for Vegas at this moment, but if you're planning to try to do so in 2-5 years, do you have any idea how much money you'll need before you do? What stakes you'll have to play, and what win-rate you'll need? You say you haven't played much live, and yet you make it seem like you can just hop in and be a winner there. This may or may not be true.

Also, I skimmed through some of the answers and your replies to them, and the fact that you seem to think you'll always be profitable is concerning to me. The games are constantly changing, and right now they are only getting tougher. Live is still pretty soft, but that can fluctuate as well. It just seems like you're not really thinking about this in a realistic way.

Edit: Oh and one last thing. If you think of watching the EPT and reading Poker News articles as "study," then I have to assume you've never made a true effort to systematically improve your game.
 
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