What causes a reasonable player to shove this turn?

Just curious. Hand 3 I was surprised, not by his holding, but his turn shove.

Reviewing the table history, I did 3 bet twice before.

hands in sequence of occurance, so the turn shove in question is the third hand. He was to my right, so I 3 bet him from early in the second hand.



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HAND #1
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$0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

MP1: 24.4 bb
MP2: 19.6 bb
MP3: 118.2 bb
CO: 41.8 bb
Hero (BTN): 100 bb
SB: 133.8 bb
BB: 49.6 bb
UTG+2: 98.4 bb

Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with X X
UTG+2 raises to 3 bb, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero raises to 8 bb, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+2 calls 5 bb

Flop: (17.4 bb) 6 3 3 (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets 11 bb, UTG+2 folds

Results: 17.4 bb pot (0.8 bb rake)

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HAND #2
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$0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

CO: 37.6 bb
BTN: 16.8 bb
SB: 117.2 bb
BB: 52.4 bb
UTG+1: 102.8 bb
Hero (UTG+2): 108.6 bb
MP1: 100.2 bb
MP2: 48.8 bb
MP3: 84 bb

Pre-Flop: Hero is UTG+2 with X X
UTG+1 raises to 3 bb, Hero raises to 8 bb, MP1 folds, MP2 calls 8 bb, MP3 folds, CO calls 8 bb, BTN folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls 5 bb

Flop: (33.4 bb) 3 5 T (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets 20 bb, MP2 folds, CO folds, UTG+1 folds

Results: 33.4 bb pot (1.6 bb rake)

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HAND #3
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$0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 7 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

MP1: 50.6 bb
MP2: 141.2 bb
MP3: 75.2 bb
CO: 102.8 bb
Hero (BTN): 130 bb
SB: 19 bb
BB: 41.4 bb

Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with A A
MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO raises to 3 bb, Hero calls 3 bb, SB folds, BB calls 2 bb

Flop: (9.4 bb) 7 K 3 (3 players)
BB checks, CO bets 5 bb, Hero raises to 18 bb, BB folds, CO calls 13 bb

Turn: (45.4 bb) 8 (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets 24 bb, CO raises to 81.8 bb and is all-in, Hero calls 57.8 bb

River: (209 bb) 6 (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: 209 bb pot (10.2 bb rake)
CO showed J K (a pair of Kings) and lost (-102.8 bb net)
Hero showed A A (a pair of Aces) and won 198.8 bb (96 bb net)


He seemed to be a reasonable TAG. Does the spaz seem odd, or did my earlier 3 bets maybe make him think I was pushing people around?

He could be trying to rep AK, thinking he will get KQ to fold?? Though wouldn't that demand a reraise on the flop? If you hold KQ or better and call he has his flush draw, I guess...

Either like you said, he thinks you're a bully and you have total air... or he just made a mistake, which people do... what're your stats this session?


BTW I think we should be raising here pre since it would look like we're trying to just pressure CO into folding and he would probably call as a result.

Yea, after uve been 3betting villain this much you have to 3bet AA. He will be getting pissed at you, why flat?


As for the hand. You rep 2 hands, 77 and 33 since he thinks you will be 3betting AA, KK, and AK. You probably dont raise KQ on this board so really you only rep 2 hands and bluffs. I have no idea why he jams turn though. Best play here is to ch/call turn and river if he thinks you're full of it. All of this is probably mute though as hes probably not thinking on this level. He thinks I have TP + Flush draw ARRR INNNN!!

Flatting AA here is so bad it blows my mind. Situations like this are exactly why you 3-bet light, so that you can pick up real hands later and value-town them retarded in big pots.

bw07507 said:

You probably dont raise KQ on this board... All of this is probably mute though as hes probably not thinking on this level. He thinks I have TP + Flush draw ARRR INNNN!!

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Yeah, villain is erroneously putting him on KQ I think...

c9, what's your suggested bet size pre?

To me he has a reasonably big hand with top pair and 2nd nut flush draw and maybe he is trying to push off everyone because he thinks he is in front which to be honest I would probably have the same thought and be doing the same thing. There is a straight on the board with the right cards and 1 better flush draw. I mean you have flat called on the BUT so it is hard to put you on the over pair as you may just be calling as you have position.

So I dont see it as an awful play but of course I am not The Muppetteer for nothing.

The Muppetteer

Syfted said:

c9, what's your suggested bet size pre?

Click to expand...

11-12 big blinds seems good...

well i like the way you both played the hand. I like the smooth call preflop. I think it helps him to push all in on the turn with just TP and flush draw.
I think he was thinking you were try to steal after the flop so he decide to put the pressure on you on the turn. You got to to push all of his chips in which is the goal. I say well done, but i am not at your level yet.

I don't see what is so wrong with what both players did to be honest. So what if he shoved with KJ, top pair, flush? I don't see the big deal in the agressive play especially if the guy thought he may be able to get his opponent off the hand. I could easily see a scenario where his opponent put him on a hand like 99.

My reason for flatting pre was to not fold out standard CO stealing range hands that might catch a bit of the flop. The previous 3 bets pre were with more vulnerable hands, JJ or QQ.

And I guess I sucked him in a bit, after showing willingness to 3 bet pre so obviously I would 3 bet again if I had AA/KK, but I wasn't thinking that deep. Like getting a breaking ball after two fastballs.

I don't know what my table stats were, nothing outrageous I don't think, other than having 3 bet twice in 60 hands or so. That being said, since I have 3 bet and not shown down, he might be willing to at least flat a 3 bet with KJs so maybe there's no need to flat pre.

Wolfpack43ACC said:

I don't see what is so wrong with what both players did to be honest. So what if he shoved with KJ, top pair, flush? I don't see the big deal in the agressive play especially if the guy thought he may be able to get his opponent off the hand. I could easily see a scenario where his opponent put him on a hand like 99.

Click to expand...

He is turning a marginaly strong hand with decent equity into a bluff, he is almost never geting called by worse then KJ and the extra flush outs dont really make up for the fact that when he is called he is almost allways dominated.