What am i doing wrong

Hi all, new to the formum. Been playing poker for about 5 years, mostly online, i play low stakes, 6 or 10 dollar SnG's, up to 15 dollar tourneys, and 10/25c cash games.

I consider myself decent but with some serious flaws.

I'm very good at tourneys, excellent cashing percentage, im ok at SnG's although when i do lose i know why, but im terrible at cash games.

What happens to me in cash games is that I cant deal with bullies, I bet properly but always seem to get beat by a bully, then from that point on i will limp into pots for fear of getting repopped, then of course we all know what happens, i limp with a good hand and get beat by the unraised BB with Q9 or something.

Tourneys suit me because I am willing to be very disciplined, recently played a tourney, and when i got to final table, i'd played 31 hands from 203 (15%), and won 26 of them.

But I dont often have time to play tourneys, has anyone got any sensible tips (without ripping into me) to help me with cash play.

Cheers

Steve

Well maybe cash game just isn't your thing, but you could be playing cash game limits that do not suit you right, maybe going down to smaller limits where you are the one controlling the table.

Absolutely agree with gmuballer above. Take a break from cash games, play some affordable tourneys and build a bankroll. Once you got some cash going, try playing some really cheap cash games and test your skills out. Go in with a framework of limited capital going into cash games. Have you read any poker books? Harrington's Series are the perfect starting point. Also, make sure you understand the mathematics in Theory of Poker by Sklansky. All this might help you see what you're doing wrong at cash tables.

I only play tourneys, because I am very comfortable with the structure of play. I don't "miss" cash games at all. So maybe that's an option too?

You just need to bolster your cash game? You came to the right place to work out how to play bullies.

Just get involved. Ask questions and before you know it you'll be in the freeroll club. Then you can work it out amongst the biggest bullies in the biz... for free.

This is just a matter of confidence. Study, make mistakes, get advise, make more mistakes, study more and emerge a cash game winner. It will come.

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I like all of the feed back thus far.
1 of 2 things I would try... Go to smaller limits (as noted above), or move to higher limit (new table). I find that payers play better in the higher stakes. You still need to put reads on players, single out 1 or 2 weaker players to go after, and try to stay away from the others (cards permitting).
Tourney & Cash Game are 2 totally diff games. Ask yourself if you're playing both games the same? You should be folding more hands in a cash game (unless, short handed).

dont move to a higher limit, thats ridiculous, i hear people say that they are better players so you can get better reads etc etc

but in reality, if you cant beat the donkfest that is microstakes, you should never move up

Post some HH's of cash game play so we can see what you maybe doing wrong. We can help and give you better advice by looking at your play. If you dont really understand the cash game 10/25 is a harsh level to be playing at and will put a dent in your BR.

Thanks for the advice so far guys... no i definately wont move up a level, i dont believe in all that its easier against better players, and the donks keep sucking out on me, long term, if you get your money in at the right price, you will beat the donks... my issue is probably being too scared to bet properly against bullies, perhaps that means im playing with scared money.

I dont know whether to invest in poker management software, and yes i have read Harrington on Holdem, but do none of you guys think that the internet revolution has changed things since his day, you cant 3x raise with AK and excpect only 1 or 2 callers, chances are in a SnG you'll get 4 or 5 callers....
Also, i use PKR, and i dont see any option to be able to got back and look at logs of hand history.,.. so what should i do?

If playing 31 of 203 hands is typical of your style, you will have trouble with cash games once you get above the lowest levels where you can sit back and wait to make money from other players' mistakes and poor plays. And even at those levels, your win rate won't be optimal.

If you know you're too often changing your game from what it should be in situations where you become scared money, the most straightforward thing to try might be simply to play at a level where you either won't feel scared or won't back off because you do. This will help you to desensitize yourself so you won't feel as much anxiety when you move up and face those situations with more money involved.

As for books, my take on them is that in some cases, their real value isn't in providing "recipes" to follow, but in helping you learn to think in more / different ways than you did before, whether you come to the same decisions or not.

stg1969 said:

Thanks for the advice so far guys... no i definately wont move up a level, i dont believe in all that its easier against better players, and the donks keep sucking out on me, long term, if you get your money in at the right price, you will beat the donks... my issue is probably being too scared to bet properly against bullies, perhaps that means im playing with scared money.

I dont know whether to invest in poker management software, and yes i have read Harrington on Holdem, but do none of you guys think that the internet revolution has changed things since his day, you cant 3x raise with AK and excpect only 1 or 2 callers, chances are in a SnG you'll get 4 or 5 callers....
Also, i use PKR, and i dont see any option to be able to got back and look at logs of hand history.,.. so what should i do?

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If you are serious about your game, I would definitely tell you to invest in some Poker Software. Poker Tracker 3 and Leak Buster (what I use) would be my advice to you. HEM is a great choice also. All of these software's have a free trial period!

hi

i used PKR when it first started, its quite a bit different in style to most poker rooms, mainly because it has pretty graphics and lots of social aspects such as friends message system etc, meaning the standard of play at the micro's is actually worse there than anywhere i have ever played

just wait for good hands and value bet value bet value bet, just keep betting until someone raises you (obviously thats not the full explanation of how to play but its a good mantra to start)

dont bluff, because you will get called by overcards,flush draws, straight draws, gut shot draws. any pair, and my personal favourite - because they just feel like it

hit top pair, bet bet bet, dont slowplay big hands, just keep valuebetting, make them pay big if they want to chase that gutshot

i would get hold em manager or poker tracker they are great tools, and easily make back their money in no time

NEWTDOG101 said:

If you are serious about your game, I would definitely tell you to invest in some Poker Software. Poker Tracker 3 and Leak Buster (what I use) would be my advice to you. HEM is a great choice also. All of these software's have a free trial period!

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This. HM or PT will allow you to properly track and review your play. Leak Buster will quickly show you where you are playing sub optimally and give you really good training content to help you with resolving the issue. This combination of software will give you more than enough tools to study effectively.

I would suggest HM2 over PT though, but you can get both trials and decide for yourself.

i have also tried both and prefer hm2

Shwiggler said:

This. HM or PT will allow you to properly track and review your play. Leak Buster will quickly show you where you are playing sub optimally and give you really good training content to help you with resolving the issue. This combination of software will give you more than enough tools to study effectively.

I would suggest HM2 over PT though, but you can get both trials and decide for yourself.

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Hi Shwiggler,
So between LeakBuster and PT, which would be your preference? I tried a trial version of PT and was pretty satisfied with the features. How would LB be better in comparison?

Thanks!

Start sharing some hand histories and posting up examples, the above advice for getting leak buster is great too.

It's just a matter of tracking your play, finding the spots where you're losing, fixing the problems and improving your game.

I suffer from the exact same problem so the advice the rest have already given is welcome. The only thing I would say is that personally I can't stand cash games and find them boring. I play them for VIP points at various sites and break even at least.

In my opinion you should never open limp. Ever. The old saying " if it is worth playing it is worth raising" is true. Limping is an easy way to trap yourself into losing a huge pot when you could have won a small pot. Definately use a HUD. It helps define your opponents range of hands and playing style. If you can't get a Hud yet, search for every player on your table and determin who is alot of tables. They will often be the tight regs who will play significantly different than the guy playing a $5 tournament and 2 cash games. Decide before the flop what conditions will be required to commit to your hand. I hpe that helps.

The posts were of gr8 help guys. I also suck at cash games. I never heard about those poker softwares. But I am gonna try them right now. Can you tell me where can I buy them for best price???

gmuballer111 said:

...but you could be playing cash game limits that do not suit you right, maybe going down to smaller limits where you are the one controlling the table.

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I'm strictly w/ this... Play at limits you're comfortable with. You're probably letting the bullies push you around because you're thinking "damn, I could lose X amount..." At a lower limit think about why real low-limit players & play money players "act" like they maniacal and fearless... It's because they have nothing to lose. The bullies at your tables may be adequately BR'ed or maybe just don't care (or a variety of other reasons...) Maybe you should move down for a while to adjust to their stupidity so you can be more comfortable w/ confrontation and be able to push back properly... In other words, a limit where you can be just as comfortable as these wanna-be "fearless" players... Don't allow them to force you out of the ways of playing and dealing with situations that you KNOW to be correct just because they are "out-bidding" you...

Ezekiel162 said:

I'm strictly w/ this... Play at limits you're comfortable with. You're probably letting the bullies push you around because you're thinking "damn, I could lose X amount..." At a lower limit think about why real low-limit players & play money players "act" like they maniacal and fearless... It's because they have nothing to lose. The bullies at your tables may be adequately BR'ed or maybe just don't care (or a variety of other reasons...) Maybe you should move down for a while to adjust to their stupidity so you can be more comfortable w/ confrontation and be able to push back properly... In other words, a limit where you can be just as comfortable as these wanna-be "fearless" players... Don't allow them to force you out of the ways of playing and dealing with situations that you KNOW to be correct just because they are "out-bidding" you...

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Thats spot on...dont get me wrong, im not claiming to be superb, but i know that over 10'000 hands, my stats of 19/16 are better than these 50/30 donks that just dont care about the money...

Ezekiel162 said:

I'm strictly w/ this... Play at limits you're comfortable with. You're probably letting the bullies push you around because you're thinking "damn, I could lose X amount..." At a lower limit think about why real low-limit players & play money players "act" like they maniacal and fearless... It's because they have nothing to lose. The bullies at your tables may be adequately BR'ed or maybe just don't care (or a variety of other reasons...) Maybe you should move down for a while to adjust to their stupidity so you can be more comfortable w/ confrontation and be able to push back properly... In other words, a limit where you can be just as comfortable as these wanna-be "fearless" players... Don't allow them to force you out of the ways of playing and dealing with situations that you KNOW to be correct just because they are "out-bidding" you...

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Spot on, I'm not saying im Phil Ivey, but i know that with a 19/16 record im a lot better than these idiots with 50+/30...
Im now playing exclusively .01/.02 limit and to be honest, you can make money just as fast as at 5NL, because you just have to wait patiently for people to shove on you when you have the nuts.... (not just that but generally, i creep slowly upwards and then spike an allin, and thats the general pattern)...occasionally i get sucked out on for a largish pot, but i just fight back slowly..

stg1969 said:

Spot on, I'm not saying im Phil Ivey, but i know that with a 19/16 record im a lot better than these idiots with 50+/30...
Im now playing exclusively .01/.02 limit and to be honest, you can make money just as fast as at 5NL, because you just have to wait patiently for people to shove on you when you have the nuts.... (not just that but generally, i creep slowly upwards and then spike an allin, and thats the general pattern)...occasionally i get sucked out on for a largish pot, but i just fight back slowly..

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I agree with you completely on the above point... Was just giving some comment as towards the pot-bullies. I attempted at various points, when I knew my BR wasn't exactly right, to play higher limits(got itchy to try to make more, faster...) and found that I was playing scared to raises I knew could break me if I made incorrect decisions and therefore would fold more often or not cbet/steal as much as I should've. Even playing with stats similar to yours, knowing that I probably had the better hand. Just one of many gentle reminders of not playing with a "scared" stack my friend... You've played more/higher limits than I have, so you would probably know better than I would whether my comments suit you or not Stg'...

Some people are tournament players, some players are cash game players. Very few professional players can do both. So it seems to me that your a tournament player... as am i. in tournaments you have time to wait and sit and play position and get good reads on players. in a cash game you gotta play alot different and it just doesnt suit some players. stick to what your good at. instead of trying to play cash tables, save that money and start playing higher tournaments, because theres only one tournement that every poker player in the world wants to get into. Aim for that, dont bother with cash tables.

Good point Dave... Added note:
Tournament Risk = BI
Ring Game Risk = BR (possibly, if unchecked...)
Goes back to why you might be having problems with one and not the other. Once again I think its dealing with the "mental" aspect of your game...