virtual decks

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stridler

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Hi all
Im new in online poker and i would like to know some things about computerised shuffels

I did some playmoney games and some real money games and those flops seems very different
In playmoney i always get really good cards and in real money alot off bad beats.

I just wonna know if there really is a virtual 52 card deck or is it a program that deals cards based on who is betting....
If there really is a virtual card deck then why r all decks not simply recorded in a database before each hand is dealt so that players can look in to it when the game is played and see for themself if its really fair and random....

thx anyway
 
spranger

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the deck works a bit different than in real life. there is no "shuffle" at the start of the hand. in other words, the card's that are gonna come are not determined yet. if they were, there would be a way to hack into the system and see what was about to flop.
so basically it just produces random cards exactly when it has to and pops 'em out.
and don't play with playmoney chips, hurts your game.
 
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stridler

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hacked.....if such sites could be hacked it would happen already
 
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sharpone

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I WAS TOLD

I was told that they use 6 decks that the cards are shuffled through. Not like blackjack are they using 6 decks at a time i hope. But the guy said 6, so i assume that its continually shuffling 5 at all times and moves it along. But ofcourse it is 52 cards to the deck, or atleast i hope so once again.:cool:
 
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PokerJoeAAAA

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We have built our site from the ground up to provide our players with the safest and highest quality site on which to play poker. World renown tournament directors Jack McClelland and Jim Albrecht have worked with us to ensure the integrity of the game and many of the world's top professional players have endorsed our efforts. Further, we are highly confident that the systems used for Random Number Generation (RNG), and the card-shuffling algorithm that utilizes those numbers, are not only the most advanced and reliable within the online poker community that it would be difficult to find better in ANY application.
Here is a brief overview of the system that we use, and the methods by which we've approached RNG and card shuffling:
Several competitors have experienced serious problems with pseudo-random number generation (PRNG). In some cases these problems have compromised the security of their systems (see article about ASF Software's PRNG flaw here). Some competitors in the online gaming market attempt to provide RNG by starting with a 32-bit seed for a PRNG. Unfortunately, this method provides only a very small set of outcomes in comparison to the randomness required for truly random shuffled decks of cards. Because of this, they tend to use shuffle algorithms that attempt to work around the quality limitations of the PRNG that they are using. Sites that shuffle cards utilizing a PRNG with a 32-bit seed, will only be able to produce 4,294,967,296 possible shuffles, or merely 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000005% (or 5 x 10-57%) of the possible ways to shuffle a deck. More importantly, however, the combination of the use of a PRNG and relatively small seeds (or even large seeds that are not sufficiently random) and faulty shuffling algorithms can allow a determined individual to predict the order of the remaining cards in a deck after seeing the first several cards that are dealt.
Our approach is to forgo pseudo-random number generation wherever possible and instead use true random number generation from proven random physical devices. Our system utilizes thermal noise on a zener diode - shielded to prevent any environmental interference. The characteristics of this device are governed by the laws of quantum physics and are provably non-deterministic. Through the use of true random numbers and our shuffling algorithm (see below), we ensure first that it is impossible to predict the next card coming off the deck, and second that every possible shuffle combination is equally likely, all 8.06581751709439 X 1067 of them or 80,658,175,170,943,900,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000.
Despite the fact that the device we use is largely held to provide sufficient randomness, our security software team was concerned with making the output from the devices even more quantifiably random and fault-tolerant than a simple single-device configuration by custom-designing the following features into our system:
- We follow all recommendations of the device manufacturer as to obtaining the highest quality random bit stream per device;

- Rather than just trusting that the raw data collected from the device is random, we test the quality of each sample from the device and reject samples which do not conform to (U.S.) Federal Information Processing Standards (FIPS) Publication 140-2 - Security Requirements for Cryptographic Modules, section 4.9.1 Power-On Tests, as published by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST);

- These tests are performed for every sample collected;

- Samples that do not pass the test are not forwarded on to the mixer;

- We use two of the devices per hardware host and then mix their random streams via cryptographically-secure whitening functions, relieving any device-specific bias - or any other bias for that matter;

- The resultant output stream has been verified as appearing to be completely random over 100 runs of the DIEHARD and ent random verification test suites;

- Procedures are in place to replace faulty devices at the first sign of trouble, before gameplay can be adversely affected in any way;

- DIEHARD and ent were also used to verify randomness in situations where one of the devices is failing to produce high quality samples (i.e. a higher than nominal rejection rate due to FIPS-test failures).
Our shuffling algorithm samples the stream of random numbers that is generated only when a card needs to be dealt or the deck needs to be reset between hands, thereby interleaving samples from all running games.
To enhance the security of our random number infrastructure, the samples from the random stream are encrypted using a secure stream cipher prior to being used to select cards. This step does not in any way reduce the entropy inherent in the stream.
The previous two components of our system insure that even if a person could access the system and the random number stream, or corrupt the random stream, it would still be EXTREMELY difficult to reliably determine the numbers actually used in the shuffle algorithm!
The length of time that any particular number in the random stream is a candidate to be used to select a card to be dealt is very short.
The algorithm used to select the next card to be dealt absolutely assures that every remaining card in the deck is exactly equally likely to be chosen.
When starting a new hand, the deck is never presented for play in a known state and the deck is never returned to a known state between hands, or at any other time.
 
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Nickmond

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This stuff gets awfully complicated...what it all comes down to is if you don't trust the sites you are playing on, you shouldn't play. I personally understand what you are saying in terms of feeling that you get better cards on play money games, but you are also probably more likely to make more pre-flop calls in games with no cash at stake than more with money on the line, hence a better chance of connecting more often.
 
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stridler

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Well if i loose 90 % with AA then i think something is wrong.
3 of a kind i loose about 80 %
My straights getting cracked by full houses and flushes.
Today first hand in freeroll NL 5 draw i get AA with some crap cards
I raise 500...2 players call and course my AA cracked again with 555
I understand bad luck is a part in poker but comon
I would show my tournament hystory but weird enough the only history that is sended to my mail is one im sitting out...
 
spranger

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Well if i loose 90 % with AA then i think something is wrong.
3 of a kind i loose about 80 %
My straights getting cracked by full houses and flushes.
Today first hand in freeroll NL 5 draw i get AA with some crap cards
I raise 500...2 players call and course my AA cracked again with 555
I understand bad luck is a part in poker but comon
I would show my tournament hystory but weird enough the only history that is sended to my mail is one im sitting out...

90% is pretty damn high, you probably win around 80-90% with aces and just dont remember
and the reason you're getting donked on is because you're in a FREEROLL, where donking is the law.
 
nevadanick

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Hi all
Im new in online poker and i would like to know some things about computerised shuffels

I did some playmoney games and some real money games and those flops seems very different
In playmoney i always get really good cards and in real money alot off bad beats.

I just wonna know if there really is a virtual 52 card deck or is it a program that deals cards based on who is betting....
If there really is a virtual card deck then why r all decks not simply recorded in a database before each hand is dealt so that players can look in to it when the game is played and see for themself if its really fair and random....

thx anyway

'New to online' ... says a lot too. How many hands are your "losing AA 90%" based on? 50,000, 100,000, 200,000?

How would a site single you out to give all the good play chip cards to? It can't be a 'standard' - or EVERY player would be getting those 'good cards' and no one would be losing.

No multiple decks, no rigged cards, no present deals, no program based on betting. It's online poker, 60 hands an hour compared to 20 hands an hour live and the players are much looser online.
 
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stridler

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the can use programs nobody can control
programs that give more luck to players who make big deposits
they don't want those players lose from players who never make deposits couse those r there source of income
 
nevadanick

nevadanick

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the can use programs nobody can control
programs that give more luck to players who make big deposits
they don't want those players lose from players who never make deposits couse those r there source of income

If you believe that, then you really shouldn't play anything online but playchips.

Deposits? I have never deposited on ANY poker site, and never will. I have BR's on 4 poker sites, all of them started from freeroll and special event winnings. 2 of them (the 2 sites I play at most of the time) I have increased by playing cash ring games.

Now I pay my rake, just like every other cash player. Why do they keep 'programming' me to win ... :confused: ... :D
 
nevadanick

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you play freerolls and never did a deposit?????????????
thats weird

What's 'weird' about it? I, like you, was pretty skeptical about security and honesty in online poker. I did my homework and decided, at least for the major sites, it was a 'fair' game.

I did find the online play VERY loose. That alone keeps my cash money at the live tables here and I really don't like multi-tabling as many of the bigger cash players do online. I just want to 'enjoy' the game I'm playing. I've played live since '69 and still prefer it and you can't multi-table live and I never get 'bored' at one table. When I do, guess I'll stop playing altogether.

Then I decided taking online seriously (as much as you can in freerolls) and see if it could be done. It can. Hardest part was following online BR management. Not touching the few sheckles and letting them build until I could get into ring games properly rolled and select MTT's when I feel like it.
 
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stridler

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becouse if i remeber correctly i had to make a deposit first to unlock freeroll
 
nevadanick

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becouse if i remeber correctly i had to make a deposit first to unlock freeroll

Depends on the site. Some have a deposit rule in order to withdraw freeroll winnings and a rake hand requirement, but the larger sites do not.

There are sites that offer special freerolls to 'first time depositors' but since I'm not depositing, those just aren't open for me. All other freerolls are open, including those like forum site freerolls.
 
DogzBestFrnd

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Well if i loose 90 % with AA then i think something is wrong.
3 of a kind i loose about 80 %
My straights getting cracked by full houses and flushes.
Today first hand in freeroll NL 5 draw i get AA with some crap cards
I raise 500...2 players call and course my AA cracked again with 555
I understand bad luck is a part in poker but comon
I would show my tournament hystory but weird enough the only history that is sended to my mail is one im sitting out...

If I read this right, you are saying your playing 5 card draw. If thats correct, a pair of aces isnt very hard to beat in 5 draw. Trips, straits, flushes, full houses, ect. are all alot more common in 5 draw than in holdem.
With only 4 players in 5 draw, at up to 8 cards per player (9 if a 4 card draw is allowed on an Ace) thats 32-36 cards being delt, add 8 more for each player.
With 9 players at holdem you have a max of 23.
Basicly more cards being delt means the chances of higher hands increases.

As far a the questions about card generators I am ignorant. But I do agree with what the others have said. If you dont feel comfortable at a site you shouldnt play there. If you want to try them before you deposit, try the freerolls. Get a small BR and play micro stakes to see if you like them. The play money is good to see if you like the way things look, but the game on play money tables is way differant. The competition is alot lower level and with no real risk, you can chase anyhand you want.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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the can use programs nobody can control
programs that give more luck to players who make big deposits
they don't want those players lose from players who never make deposits couse those r there source of income

this makes no sense as people who make big deposits will generally redeposit (and hence continue to pay rake) if they go busto whereas if people with a freeroll bankroll go busto they will go back to freerolls and contribute absolutely nothing in rake.

so yeah your theory which is probably based on you losing 3 hands with AA is silly.
 
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stridler

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lets just forget it
guess im having incredible bad luck and big gambling sites r 100% trusted
 
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glworden

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I can answer some of your questions.

There are different Random Number Generators used by different sites. The specifics are often described somewhere on the website, although more detail is usually available by asking support. Where did the big description earlier in this thread come from?

RNGs produce a much more random result than any human dealer is capable of.

The two most common RNG methods are:

1. Continuous random shuffle. Most sites use this. The universe of available cards is not limited to single deck. All of the cards at all of the tables are constantly shuffled and a random card is dealt at your table. One second earlier or one second later and it would be a different card. The software is set up to prevent a duplicate card being dealt at your table. In other words, if somebody already holds the ace of spades (even folded) and the ace of spades is the next in the cue, the RNG goes on to the next card.

2. Random shuffle then pre-set deck. This is the method pokerstars uses. I know of no other site that does. A full 52 card deck is shuffled, then the order of the cards in the deck is set and the cards are dealt just as they are in a regular game, although I don't think they throw off a burn card.

Method one makes for some strange concepts for the sites that have rabbiting. On Carbon, for example, you rabbit the hand. One second earlier or later and the rabbit cards are completely different. So it's not really an indication at all of which cards would have come.

As for your losing 90% with aces and whatever, we hear that all the time and it's just not accurate. Keep long term records (poker tracker of HEM) and you'll find out, just like everybody else, that your distribution of cards falls into a very predictable and narrow range. You remember the bad beats, and perhaps you haven't played enough hands - so your perception is skewed.

There is no doom button. They are not targeting you. Like somebody said, if you're getting better hands with play money, it's probably because you're seeing more hands to the river.

Gary
 
Snowmobiler

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You will be better served to concentrate on playing as good as you can and continue to learn than worrying about rigged sites.Find a winning strategy and work it.GL
 
nevadanick

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lets just forget it
guess im having incredible bad luck and big gambling sites r 100% trusted

If you're only looking for someone to agree that the sites and hands are rigged, then yes, best to forget it. Other than that, you are getting reasonable replies from most folks - just maybe not what you wanted to hear.

I can answer some of your questions.

There are different Random Number Generators used by different sites. The specifics are often described somewhere on the website, although more detail is usually available by asking support. Where did the big description earlier in this thread come from?

It's copy/pasted right from a poker site or web page somewhere. I've read it before, just don't recall exactly where.

2. Random shuffle then pre-set deck. This is the method PokerStars uses. I know of no other site that does. A full 52 card deck is shuffled, then the order of the cards in the deck is set and the cards are dealt just as they are in a regular game, although I don't think they throw off a burn card.

No poker site I know of uses a burn card. There is no purpose since the burn is to discard the top 'possible' marked card in a live game.

Method one makes for some strange concepts for the sites that have rabbiting. On Carbon, for example, you rabbit the hand. One second earlier or later and the rabbit cards are completely different. So it's not really an indication at all of which cards would have come.

One of the funniest things I find in online poker. You are absolutely correct. UB/AP does this as well now and claims in their boasts that the 'rabbit' is a fabulous 'new feature'. It is SO misleading online. Stars IS the only one you could truly 'rabbit' on - and they do not offer it (thank heavens).
 
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true

you play freerolls and never did a deposit?????????????
thats weird

I play at a poker site until I earn enough money to withdraw(freerolls).Ive been at this about 3 years and it works.The way I figure,if Im not good enuff to win a freeroll,Im not good enuff to be playing ring games.I have learned alot from playing freerolls and reading some of Roy Rounders material and reading some forum ideas and thoughts.

p.s.I played and lost for 6 months,until I read Roy Rounders,and I won my first freeroll shortly thereafter.It did help tremendously.
 
woody19

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its very differnt playing live your cards do not get cracked so often and
you dont get donked so often but online line all the time
there are annoying and funny thing that happen 2 often like seeing the river help people out so often and aa losing very often
 
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