Unethical to show the bluff?

yonosemanana

yonosemanana

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I had a post about slowrolling, but someone mentioned that this is highly unethical as well as showing the bluff.... Now, I like showing the bluff because it opens up the game and usually people start calling me with lesser hands.... kinda like balancing my range...

But is it unethical to show a bluff?
 
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heavystack

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Not in my opinion, I do it also for the same reason you do but then they start calling your bluffs to so guess its not the greatest idea lol
 
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MPaz_87

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I never show the bluff, I don't like it. What I do show is the hand sometimes, few times only.
For example, if I raise or go all in on the flopr or pre flop and nobody pays, sometimes I show my cards in order to let the other players see that I wasn't bluffing, usually it works out for me, not always, but It does, because they end up thinking I don't bluff much and then if I want to make a bluff they don't pay thinking that I actually do have something.
 
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MPaz_87

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Not in my opinion, I do it also for the same reason you do but then they start calling your bluffs to so guess its not the greatest idea lol

Exactly, they are gonna start paying with most cards and at the end you will lose, it's better not to. Or they may tag you as a bluffer.
 
yonosemanana

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I had AKs and the guy had A3os. I shoved preflop and the guy calls telling me that he called because of my previous show of the bluff. He hits one of the threes. :p
 
yonosemanana

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So showing the nuts could have the reverse effect of showing the bluff. Kinda like extreme opposites.
 
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alexis8888

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Muck is better. Imho showing the bluff is a sign of unprofessionalism. Besides, showing the bluff can be regarded as a kind of mockery.
 
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lukeellul92

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The best thing to do, if playing seriously, is never show your hands unless you have to... Why show your hand at all if you don't have to? It makes it harder for people to put you on a range.

Your example of AK vs A3o is a perfect one. You should theoretically win this hand because the A3o should just fold, but he thinks you're bluffing, and calls, and the trash hand wins. I get that this isn't always the case, but I can almost guarantee that if you didn't show your bluff hand, he wouldn't have called a shove with A3o and you would've taken down the pot.

Don't be a nit. Super simple stuff.
 
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HooDooKoo

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The best thing to do, if playing seriously, is never show your hands unless you have to... Why show your hand at all if you don't have to? It makes it harder for people to put you on a range.

Your example of AK vs A3o is a perfect one. You should theoretically win this hand because the A3o should just fold, but he thinks you're bluffing, and calls, and the trash hand wins. I get that this isn't always the case, but I can almost guarantee that if you didn't show your bluff hand, he wouldn't have called a shove with A3o and you would've taken down the pot.

Don't be a nit. Super simple stuff.

You clearly don't know what a NIT is, as NITs don't bluff --- much less show them.

-HooDooKoo
 
BobGrayling

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Your question is, "Is it unethical" to show it. No, I don't see why it would be.

I saw the post in the other thread that caused you to ask this. I thought it was an odd comment at the time.

Should you show them? Should you not? Is it taunting? Does it serve a purpose? Lots of ways to go there. But, "unethical"? I can't see it.
 
Zorba

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Muck is better. Imho showing the bluff is a sign of unprofessionalism. Besides, showing the bluff can be regarded as a kind of mockery.

I don't think it is unethical, poker is more than just playing your hand, if you can get inside your opponents head with a well timed bluff and you show it you can get your opponent to make bad decisions just like the AK v A3 hand that was mentioned, I'd love it if they called with A3 to my AK disregard the result, calling with A3 was a bad decision.

.
 
10058765

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The best thing to do, if playing seriously, is never show your hands unless you have to... Why show your hand at all if you don't have to? It makes it harder for people to put you on a range.

Your example of AK vs A3o is a perfect one. You should theoretically win this hand because the A3o should just fold, but he thinks you're bluffing, and calls, and the trash hand wins. I get that this isn't always the case, but I can almost guarantee that if you didn't show your bluff hand, he wouldn't have called a shove with A3o and you would've taken down the pot.

Don't be a nit. Super simple stuff.

Look....actually we have to give a party when they call with A3o after our shove...it's what we want, people calling with their trash.

And a nit...well in an unopened pot, folding AK pre would be nitty (and fishy).
In most cases open shoving AK is fishy too by the way, definitely not nitty though.

About showing a bluff...I'm not gonna judge if it is wise or not, but it can be part of your gameplan.
If you just do it to rub it in and make someone feel bad, I think it's unethical or at least childish behaviour.
 
BentleyBoy

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Is anything unethical in poker?

Well ok! Some things may be, but that enters the realm of personalisation and rudeness. The act of showing cards is all part of the game. If everyone only a ever played winning hands, then the game would be sooooooooo boring. To say calling with A3 is a bad call, is only true if the hand loses in a position where it should lose. But it will be an amazing bluff if it wins!

The variety of stuff you can do in poker reduces the amount of what is unethical. Play how you want as long as you don't disrespect your opponents. (Making bad calls or bluffing is not disrespect)
 
10058765

10058765

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Is anything unethical in poker?

Well ok! Some things may be, but that enters the realm of personalisation and rudeness. The act of showing cards is all part of the game. If everyone only a ever played winning hands, then the game would be sooooooooo boring. To say calling with A3 is a bad call, is only true if the hand loses in a position where it should lose. But it will be an amazing bluff if it wins!

The variety of stuff you can do in poker reduces the amount of what is unethical. Play how you want as long as you don't disrespect your opponents. (Making bad calls or bluffing is not disrespect)
Calling with A3 is not a bluff, but either fishy, or for value or a bluff-catcher.
 
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lukeellul92

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Look....actually we have to give a party when they call with A3o after our shove...it's what we want, people calling with their trash.

And a nit...well in an unopened pot, folding AK pre would be nitty (and fishy).
In most cases open shoving AK is fishy too by the way, definitely not nitty though.

About showing a bluff...I'm not gonna judge if it is wise or not, but it can be part of your gameplan.
If you just do it to rub it in and make someone feel bad, I think it's unethical or at least childish behaviour.


I never said to fold AK pre?

And shoving AK I PERSONALLY think should only be done if you're short stacked.


But, my post is essentially to do with the basic optimal play with these 2 hands.
If villain hadn't seen heros bluff from previous hands, villain wouldn't (shouldn't) shove with A3o, unless super short stacked.
Thats why I said, if hero hadn't shown his bluffs, he would (normally) have won this pot, no?

I feel it's easier to just not show any of your hands unless required. That way, people don't know if you were bluffing or not. I feel this would be better play?
But once again, each to their own. If he feels like showing his bluffs, no ones stopping him.
Also apologies, my use of the word "nit" was incorrect.
 
10058765

10058765

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I never said to fold AK pre?

I know...I just used it as a little example of what "nit"means.

And shoving AK I PERSONALLY think should only be done if you're short stacked.
Not only there but you're on the right track.


But, my post is essentially to do with the basic optimal play with these 2 hands.
If villain hadn't seen heros bluff from previous hands, villain wouldn't (shouldn't) shove with A3o, unless super short stacked.
Thats why I said, if hero hadn't shown his bluffs, he would (normally) have won this pot, no?
Villain didn't shove, he called the shove, and no matter the result, we're such a big favourite we should be happy with that call.
Even if we're not thinking of a specific calling hand (A3) but instead a calling range (which we should) we're favourite to win the pot.
The fact we didn't win basically doesn't change anything (would be result oriented).


I feel it's easier to just not show any of your hands unless required. That way, people don't know if you were bluffing or not. I feel this would be better play?
But once again, each to their own. If he feels like showing his bluffs, no ones stopping him.
Better play or not ? I don't know, but personally, I always keep it simple....I just never show...but as you say, it's each to their own....
Also apologies, my use of the word "nit" was incorrect.
No apologies needed, we all make mistakes.....take it from the bright side....guess you learned the difference between a fish and a nit.
Although most nits are fish, fish can be anything from super nitty upto super loose.
 
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lukeellul92

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No apologies needed, we all make mistakes.....take it from the bright side....guess you learned the difference between a fish and a nit.
Although most nits are fish, fish can be anything from super nitty upto super loose.


I guess after reading your explanation I can see where you are coming from. Yes, I'd rather AK then A3 when it comes to a shove :p

I guess he got unlucky then. Thanks for clarifying. !


EDIT*
Also, with your AK thing, I guess shoving with AK would also be good in a HU situation if you have your opponent covered, forcing them to put their tournament life on the line but not yours? Woudl I be correct?
 
10058765

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I'll go into it a little deeper.
If we shove AKo and get called by A3o we're about 73% to win the hand.....obviously I go for that all day and all night.
Now suppose villain thinks we're on a bluff again....they'll call with any pocket pair, any Ax, maybe even any Kx and also some Q type of hands.
So, I left out some weaker Kx and Qx hands, but still, if villain calls with QJ+, K9+, Ax and any pair we're about a 64 % favourite.
I take that....
 
fubarcdn

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If you bluff often then it is probably not wise to show because you will get looser calls that you might not want but if you rarely bluff it can prove to be profitable as you will get those looser calls that you want when you bet out strong with a good hand.
Your example of AK vs A3 is a prime example of getting a loose call that you want.
It is definitely not a ethical issue though. If you watch it on TV you will see the pros do it quite often for the above reason.
 
yonosemanana

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In most cases open shoving AK is fishy too by the way, definitely not nitty though.

I was short stack and the whole table was playing very aggro. I noticed this and showed a bluff to a new comer. I think he also noticed that the table was playing very aggro. So everyone was playing rather "fast" poker... if you know what i mean.


I
And shoving AK I PERSONALLY think should only be done if you're short stacked.

This was part of the case.
--

I was happy with my play, not so happy with the end result.

By the way, I ended up playing with the fish again and got the best of him again. He was just going all in almost every hand, probably frustrated from loosing a few bucks on the session.
 
dexon303

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Ninety-five percent of the time you shouldn't show your cards. Showing your bluff in any situation will prove to your opponent that you are capable of making a play like that. Additionally, everyone at the table will respect your play more, if your move was in fact a good play. You never want to let anyone inside your head when it comes to poker strategy. Keep in mind, you show one player, you have to show them all. There are situations where some feel that you should show your cards. You may have won the pot with a monster hand or a bluff, and showing your opponent this will strongly affect his game.
 
Bob23bk

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Sorry for the book!

Unethical... Ethics are moral principles; morality is the extent to which an action is right or wrong.
Is anything unethical in poker? Well ok! Some things may be, but that enters the realm of personalisation and rudeness.
It's obviously wrong to show the bluff in an effort to tilt other players.* The same goes for rude chat and other 'tilt behavior' (God forbid you make it big and become featured in acticles like Dan Cates)
I like showing the bluff because it opens up the game and usually people start calling me with lesser hands
I do it also for the same reason you do but then they start calling your bluffs to so guess its not the greatest idea lol
Some of us play it the opposite direction...
sometimes I show my cards in order to let the other players see that I wasn't bluffing, usually it works out for me, not always, but It does, because they end up thinking I don't bluff much
Every situation is unique and what is ethical will depend on so many factors, but while I understand the general consensus that you should reveal as few cards as possible I think most of you are highly underestimating the benefit of showing the bluff if you can pull it off correctly (and you run good:cool:) Let's take a look at your beautiful example:
I was short stack and the whole table was playing very aggro. I noticed this and showed a bluff to a new comer. I think he also noticed that the table was playing very aggro.
Was this move unethical? Depends on your objective... Next hand:
I had AKs and the guy had A3os. <-(Was not known at time of making decision) I shoved preflop and the guy calls telling me that he called because of my previous show of the bluff.
^ This is a quite stellar example of how showing the bluff can work to your advantage, well played good sir, well played! :D
Calling (all-in) with A3 is not a bluff, but either fishy, or for value or a bluff-catcher
Given the information available, Villain also (arguably) made the correct play here! From his position it was too obvious (trap) you were trying to steal blinds from a loose table because you were short-stacked.
He hits one of the threes.
:rolleyes:
I was happy with my play, not so happy with the end result.
I could not disagree more, not only did you create a text book example of (dare I say extremely?) advanced play and gain valuable information about the Villain...

I ended up playing with the fish again and got the best of him again. He was just going all in almost every hand, probably frustrated from loosing a few bucks on the session.
The bold above shows that you know you made all the right moves. You ingeniously exploited all this new-found knowledge to take advantage of a tilted fish! I can assure you there is nothing unethical about taking a tilted players chips if you did not have malicious motives on their emotions. Quite the contrary, it would be unethical to pass this offer up... I would like to commend you again for seizing yet another perfect opportunity! :icon_sant

*This is debatable: if your objective is profit, is intentionally tilting a player really the wrong move? :angel:
 
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MPaz_87

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Unethical... Ethics are moral principles; morality is the extent to which an action is right or wrong.

It's obviously wrong to show the bluff in an effort to tilt other players.* The same goes for rude chat and other 'tilt behavior' (God forbid you make it big and become featured in acticles like Dan Cates)


Some of us play it the opposite direction...

Every situation is unique and what is ethical will depend on so many factors, but while I understand the general consensus that you should reveal as few cards as possible I think most of you are highly underestimating the benefit of showing the bluff if you can pull it off correctly (and you run good:cool:) Let's take a look at your beautiful example:

Was this move unethical? Depends on your objective... Next hand:

^ This is a quite stellar example of how showing the bluff can work to your advantage, well played good sir, well played! :D

Given the information available, Villain also (arguably) made the correct play here! From his position it was too obvious (trap) you were trying to steal blinds from a loose table because you were short-stacked.

:rolleyes:

I could not disagree more, not only did you create a text book example of (dare I say extremely?) advanced play and gain valuable information about the Villain...


The bold above shows that you know you made all the right moves. You ingeniously exploited all this new-found knowledge to take advantage of a tilted fish! I can assure you there is nothing unethical about taking a tilted players chips if you did not have malicious motives on their emotions. Quite the contrary, it would be unethical to pass this offer up... I would like to commend you again for seizing yet another perfect opportunity! :icon_sant

*This is debatable: if your objective is profit, is intentionally tilting a player really the wrong move? :angel:

For me nothing is unethical in poker, you can play as you like, this are only different points of view of course, it would be a very predictable game if we all think the same, don't you think?
 
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MPaz_87

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I must disagree with you here, wp :p

That's ok, we don't have to think the same. As I say, poker it's a game of skill, luck and strategy, we all have our ways to make it .
 
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