Undeniable explanation: Cash games are superior to Tournaments

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Rational Madman

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Undeniable Point 1: Forced Bet-Pacing AKA Accelerated Variance

Cash Games involve unlimited hands (theoretically) and do not ever increase pressure to play hands (unless you are at an unusually aggro table for the stake level). Your aggression never has to be reasoned as "I only have X left, I may as well all-in here" and you always are in a setting whereby you have the option to fold and not cry about it in the long run (although your bad folds will teach you as much as your dumb raises).

Tournaments involve limited hands and furthermore punish you for having better luck EARLIER if you have bad luck LATER, so literally the majority of profit to ever be made as a tournament player comes from about 15 hands at the very end of the tournament, it can easily be a 500% increase in profit from the tournament based on the outcome of 15 consecutive hands; if you comprehend the actual math of variance you will see how severely randomized this is. On top of that, to even make it to payouts, you need to realistically have been in 2 cutthroat hands (at least) meaning that in 2 hands you and your opponent probably had coin-toss hand that you either won by drawing on the turn/river or the opponent failing to draw. Of course at the very low stakes, your opponents don't tend to make these cutthroat hands equal and end up losing more often to you in those hands as they are usually 38% to your 62% or worse. That being said, you will make more by being a very patient cash game player of the same buy-in level as that stake.

Undeniable Point 2: Ability to punish impatient fish/donks is about sevenfold

You are about seven times more able to abuse bad players in cash games than in tournaments (where you only can hope that enough other players get kicked out by the donk or at least enough to get you to payouts via folding).

The first way you are already twice as capable of doing it is that since blinds never increase over time and since variance over MANY hands is going to be less brutal to the good player's profit than a smaller amount, you can fold many hands (even semi-good hands) to ensure you are ONLY engaging the idiots when you have a clear advantage. For severe donks, you don't really need to ever chase (unless you are in a multi-draw hand like outside-
straight AND flush or something and it's only the donk who is engaging you in the hand). You can literally fold happily knowing your income is GUARANTEED to a HIGH DEGREE just by waiting it out.

The second aspect (which increases it from the already double to a quadruple) is that you never have to be on a table that is in any way forcing aggression beyond the bare minimum (which is a full table of 9 that lets you fold 7 hands for FREE, per 9 excluding your first payment). This means that you are minimising your forced loss of income (blinds) and ensuring you are maximising your ability to control your loss of income. When tournaments get to final 5, you are already in a donk dominated environment where idiots who bluff get far (I know because I get further when I play like an idiot towards the end of tournaments as opposed to a sane human being, you cannot ever consistently get first place to any degree if you play like you aren't a cold blooded psychopath with the willingness to lose to the end of a tournament). This is all forced by the blind-loss happening at final 5 and lower.

The way the 4x bonus against donks changes into 7x is tiny things like there never being a forced responsibility to bluff (you should bluff once in a while low-key to grab a tiny easy pot though) and/or having the power to jump tables if a SEVERELY LAG player is making the game unplayable with any hand short of QQ+.

Undeniable Point 3: Tilt is extremely easy to handle in cash games but extremely punishing to you in tournaments.

Now this can even be the helpless instigators of tilt like internet breaking to more preventable tilt like one bad beat making you only have 2BB left mid-tournament.

Immediate quitting to have some deep breaths and perhaps meditation to introspectively think where you got trapped in the mistake or how you could have played differently earlier in the hand to read their hand better on the river is very possible in a cash-game but in the middle of a tournament (or in the middle of multiple if you are multi tabling them) is EVEN MORE TILTING as you are now blackmailed to forfeit them or play them upset.


Closing Statement

For mathematical reasons, emotional health reasons and ability to smile as bad players fall on your sword slowly (yes you will have to fold A LOT to punish them in cash games) but surely, you simply will have a happier, more profitable lifestyle as a regular cash game table goer than a tournament reg.

Enjoy life, play cash games and relax.
 
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Lilbrown92

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I couldn't agree more with you. I've started with tournaments but I know spend more and more time playing cash game. I can see the returns more quickly, especially because I don't have so much time to play.
 
Dailon Arroyo Blandon

Dailon Arroyo Blandon

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Totally agree .... in the cash tables ... you are betting real money therefore each hand counts and you must be totally concentrated since you can earn a lot of money very fast but also you can lose it ... however you do not have You play for hours to see if you win a prize as happens in the tournaments ... you can also retire at any time you want ...
 
Odysseus101

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Excellent comments, and well written too. Good job.
 
GrouxLive

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Both can be profitable, it is all up to your playing style. I cash in most of the tournaments I play online because I play extremely tight-aggressive, so it can payoff.

You'll obviously see more overall revenue possibilities in cash games because of the number of hands that involve real money - but you can lose it just as quickly as you win it.

I feel, for me at least, that tournaments are a more sure bet most of the time.
 
RidersFan

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We get it, you have a hard-on for cash games. I like cash just as much as the next guy(obviously not as much as you)but tournaments are more fun. There's nothing like the feeling of winning a tournament. Winning a $1200 hand in $1/$2 doesn't even come close to the feeling of winning a $60 rebuy for $1375. Cash games are a grind and after a 8 to 9 hour session I feel drained and exhausted but after busting out of a tournament I just want to play another.
 
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Rational Madman

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Both can be profitable, it is all up to your playing style. I cash in most of the tournaments I play online because I play extremely tight-aggressive, so it can payoff.

You'll obviously see more overall revenue possibilities in cash games because of the number of hands that involve real money - but you can lose it just as quickly as you win it.

I feel, for me at least, that tournaments are a more sure bet most of the time.

They are not.
 
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Rational Madman

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We get it, you have a hard-on for cash games. I like cash just as much as the next guy(obviously not as much as you)but tournaments are more fun. There's nothing like the feeling of winning a tournament. Winning a $1200 hand in $1/$2 doesn't even come close to the feeling of winning a $60 rebuy for $1375. Cash games are a grind and after a 8 to 9 hour session I feel drained and exhausted but after busting out of a tournament I just want to play another.

So you are an adrenaline addict who enjoys breaking even or losing cash.
 
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Rational Madman

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Thank you for your replies.
 
vvalente

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If you are good and earn cash game profits, just keep it that way. Other people are good and have profits from tournament games. I do not know exactly what the need to prove which is better. The good player is what wins regardless of the modality...
 
FlushhDraw

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Closing Statement

For mathematical reasons, emotional health reasons and ability to smile as bad players fall on your sword slowly (yes you will have to fold A LOT to punish them in cash games) but surely, you simply will have a happier, more profitable lifestyle as a regular cash game table goer than a tournament reg.

Enjoy life, play cash games and relax.


I completely disagree. If you take $300 every day for a year and go play $1/$2 live and I take that same amount every day for that same year and play in a tournament or 2 there is no doubt in my mind I would have far more earnings in actual dollars at the end of that year than the cash player would.
 
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kozong

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complicated-drawing.jpg


cash game is so complicated, 10bb push/fold is much more relaxing to me
 
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KidA

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I disagree with saying "mathematical" reasons. Mathematically, the game is fair regardless if its a tournament or if its a cash game.
 
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marakhovskii

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Total stupidity is covered with a thick layer of chocolate.
 
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koskesh

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That was a great and very informative analysis. Thank you for sharing!
 
terryk

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and again,very funny,ty:D
 
Jblocher1

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Hey there! Tournament reg here. I agree with you that cash games are better if you are looking to earn a steady wage in poker as it's not hard to not cash in 30-40 or even 50 online tournaments in a row when u are playing with decent competition. With that being said I think ur post displays ur naivety about tournament play as I reckon you have never been exclusively an MTT player and I'm guessing you have never actually studied the theory.

1. If your reasoning for jamming all in is as you described "I only have x amount of chips, might as well all in" then you shouldn't be playing poker at all. Just like in cash games, everything we do has reasoning and logic behind it. In fact, if you are in a push fold state you should just be jamming nash ranges because you cannot be exploited shoving Nash.

2. Also, if you play nine max ring games I'm surprised u haven't died of boredom yet.

3. So if you have a 3k roll, you can either play a 30 dollar ABI for MTT's, or you can play 100NL. perhaps cash tables are a better choice for you because of your particular skill set. But I want to make one thing very clear, you cannot be a good long term 100NL winner online by just waiting for good cards. ABC poker is great for 4/10NL and maybe even 25NL but your foolproof strategy of just waiting for cards completely falls apart at the cash game equivalent roll wise to a 30 dollar buy in tournament.

4. Tournament tilt shouldn't be a problem if you are fully in control of yourself

5. You display your naivety on the subject most when you suggested that you "make it further when you play like an idiot towards the end of tournaments as opposed to a sane human being". My guess would be that this experience has happened over a very small sample of games, and objectively bad play takes away any edge u would have had against these so called donk infested final 5. I also notice that there's no consideration paid to ICM which becomes super critical at final tables with huge pay bumps. If you aren't considering ICM you are not maximizing ur real money equity

In some regards you are right, but I mostly think ur being unfair to tournament players
 
GrouxLive

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They are not.

I'd say the name "Irrational Madman" would be more fitting. It is completely irrational to think that you understand how, why or when I am most successful in poker. What if I told you, the levels of success in poker, are as varied as the players themselves? OMG!

I won more in a MTT yesterday, than I did three days of live games. And my profit per hour in MTTs is exponentially higher than cash games... I know, I track such data. But go on, tell me about how your way is better for me.

I play really well in tournament play, because it fits my tight-aggressive play style. I think the biggest advantage I have in MTT play, is the fact that other players change their game for the MTT - I don't. I find it much easier to read players who are worried about busting out of an MTT just a few places from the money than it is your normal cash game player.

If you are good and earn cash game profits, just keep it that way. Other people are good and have profits from tournament games. I do not know exactly what the need to prove which is better. The good player is what wins regardless of the modality...

Exactly. Every player is different, and every player's personality is different. Players who play well in live, might not online, or players who play well in tournaments, might not play well in cash games. To think that there is a wrong or right way to play the game is laughable.

The object is to win the game, how or why you do it doesn't really matter, that's semantics.

I disagree with saying "mathematical" reasons. Mathematically, the game is fair regardless if its a tournament or if its a cash game.

Good point, and further proof of the many flawed things brought up in the original post. The math doesn't change, there are still 52 cards in a deck. Now, the variables can change in the game - but the odds are still the same. If you're hoping for that gut straight card on the river, it doesn't matter if there are 2 players in the mix or 9.

Total stupidity is covered with a thick layer of chocolate.

:hahaha:
 
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Rational Madman

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I completely disagree. If you take $300 every day for a year and go play $1/$2 live and I take that same amount every day for that same year and play in a tournament or 2 there is no doubt in my mind I would have far more earnings in actual dollars at the end of that year than the cash player would.

Good luck with covering the losses.
 
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trent32la

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This post is Beyond LOL.

I'm probably biased here as I've played a greater number of MTTs as cash game hands in the past few years and play very spazzy in general, but the strategy of playing like a complete NIT in cash games no longer works in 2017 poker. For the most part, cash games are very boring. Most times, you are grinding away for a 3bb/100 winrate playing the same stack depth, same blind levels, over and over again.

In 2017 poker, the fish are looking for fun and entertainment. In Cash games where the standard of play is so much higher and variance is lower than MTTs, fish have much less of a shot at winning long term, with many getting completely crushed. The variance in MTTs is what attracts fish, they don't have to be as good to win in the format as they do in cash games. Fish do not get eaten alive as easily in MTTs which is why MTTs are the most profitable format of poker present day.

The fact that the blinds never increases and there's no antes in cash games also force you to play much tighter than in an MTT, yawn. There's a lot more "situations" that come up in MTTs compared to cash games, meaning you are constantly having to adjust your ranges to suit what is optimal, not so much the case in cash games.
 
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Rollex

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Some players I know are mostly at tournaments and they are good at it. I prefer cash and I know I'm better at cash tables...for more then 10 years of poker.
 
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Rational Madman

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This post is Beyond LOL.

I'm probably biased here as I've played a greater number of MTTs as cash game hands in the past few years and play very spazzy in general, but the strategy of playing like a complete NIT in cash games no longer works in 2017 poker. For the most part, cash games are very boring. Most times, you are grinding away for a 3bb/100 winrate playing the same stack depth, same blind levels, over and over again.

In 2017 poker, the fish are looking for fun and entertainment. In Cash games where the standard of play is so much higher and variance is lower than MTTs, fish have much less of a shot at winning long term, with many getting completely crushed. The variance in MTTs is what attracts fish, they don't have to be as good to win in the format as they do in cash games. Fish do not get eaten alive as easily in MTTs which is why MTTs are the most profitable format of poker present day.

The fact that the blinds never increases and there's no antes in cash games also force you to play much tighter than in an MTT, yawn. There's a lot more "situations" that come up in MTTs compared to cash games, meaning you are constantly having to adjust your ranges to suit what is optimal, not so much the case in cash games.
I mean I can film myself doing it if you want me to prove it works in 2017.
 
DougPkrMonsta

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Truly undeniable: Your posting style rubbed me the wrong way.

You can enjoy cash more than tournaments, lots of people do. However I don't understand the need to convert others to your point of view.

There's a lot of money to be made in both tournaments and cash games if you put the work in to take advantage of your opponents' mistakes.

Do what makes you happy, but trying to convince people cash games are obviously better than tournaments will likely be ineffectual and fruitless - especially to any who have made a living playing both.

Good luck to you. :D
 
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Rational Madman

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Truly undeniable: Your posting style rubbed me the wrong way.

You can enjoy cash more than tournaments, lots of people do. However I don't understand the need to convert others to your point of view.

There's a lot of money to be made in both tournaments and cash games if you put the work in to take advantage of your opponents' mistakes.

Do what makes you happy, but trying to convince people cash games are obviously better than tournaments will likely be ineffectual and fruitless - especially to any who have made a living playing both.

Good luck to you. :D
You can't make a lot with tournaments because even second place of a SnG doesn't win back a full loss (due to the house/casino/site taking some so it falls a little short).
 
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