UB STAND UP

alotta people downing my fav site ultimatebet.com aint nobody speaking up for it. i see you in the cardschat freerolls yall gon let them down us like that.
so if you down wit UB like me and phil heelmuth post something letting me know where u at put ya screen name and imma put you on my buddy list 2

I once sat for about two hours playing on UB, i saw quads dealt no less than seven times. Does that seem high to you? Cause it does to me. UB is at best a grannie network. Dealing super hands to keep grandma happy.

The Ultimate Bet / Absolute Poker sites have been involved in 2 instances of insider cheating (that we know of), in the last year. Why would anyone still trust them with their money?

Got both AP and UB hats so cant quit now!

2 hours is statistically meaningless, as you must know, so anomalies or outliers are equally meaningless.

An English version of this post is available on request.

Love the english version..lol..lol...UB is a little too slow or me.I like fast action.Might be ok if i was on valiums or xanaxs tho..lol

A lot of people have been speaking poorly of my favorite website, UltimateBet.com and nobody is speaking good of it. I see some people in the CardsChat freerolls so how are you going to let the UltimateBet haters speak of it like that? If you like UltimateBet as much as Phil Hellmuth and I do, post in this thread with some contact information such as your screen name. If you do so, I will put you on my buddy list as well.

How accurate was I there, MissThang?

Ultimate Bet sucks. It's slow, the design is terrible, and it's so dull.

I wont down UB but it does have room to catch up to Stars and Tilt

Yes, like not having super-users and then trying to cover it all up. And then on top of that there's the crappy (just my opinion here, but the super-users is fact) interface and such.

UB still has one of the BEST http://www.cardschat.com/f13/tournament-structure-comparison-103496/ on the web, and offers the BEST rake (standard 10%) at micro limit tournaments (unlike FT and PS who charge 20-25%), and has the BEST stakes (as low as $0.20 + 0.02) for bankroll management with limited resources.

UB was my first site and it's still my favorite site.

What a company did in the past, under a different owner, shouldn't really influence how you deal with a company in the present. All these people who are rabidly anti any specific site are just going to eventually cause the downfall of every site, at least to US players.

Just remember that even PS and FT have had major problems. Either with bots, collusion or some other deal that caused them to have to refund money to players. 2+2's leader, Mason Bigmouth (or whatever his name is) has it in for UB, I guess they didn't kickback enough cash to him like Stars does.

Personally I prefer the software at UB to anywhere else. The miniview feature is fantastic, I don't need to see a "round" table, just minimize things so I can fit a bunch of tables on my screen and still be able to surf the net.

LOL at people using Ultimate Bet. They are certified by the Kahnawake indian tribe, do some research on them and decide whether or not you'd trust them with your money.

So is Full Tilt. So why do YOU play on that site?

Ultimate bet is the only site i know of that has it's bonuses tied to contributory rake and not paticipatory rake. This means you must be in the hand til the end to get any credit. This doesn't seem right to me. On most sites all you need to do is see a flop. So their bonuses are worthless.

i still think theres cheating at UB. some guy had $340 in his stack at 0.10/0.25 where the max buy in is $25 lol

I like the software, and they fork over a lot of money to players like myself trying to keep us around after the whole super user scandal.

I'm not exactly loyal to any site. As long as I can deposit/withdrawl my money easily, they give me a large amount of cash back compared to the rake I pay, and they don't hassle me, that's where I'll play.

Ultimate Bet seems rigged in my opinion, I see group 1 hands dealt almost every hand and so many bad beats compared to other sites I'm not sure but it just seems like it is rigged.

We at Kahnawake are Mohawks, and are a nation, not a tribe. The Kahnawake Gaming Commission hosts hundreds of online sites, Absolute Poker and Ultimatebet being just two. Those two are owned by Joe Norton, former chief or the Mohawks here for many years.
Are you implying that Mohawks are dishonest because we are 'indian tribe?'
If so, look at where you are playing, because chances are that your platform is 'regulated' or hosted by KGC, a trail blazer and leader in online gaming on Turtle Island.

Please tell me the "lol" means you are joking. Please.

I do like UB's tourney structure, but thats about it, even navigating through the software on the interface was a bit confusing....but then again thats because I am used to PS and FT's

Quote of a lifetime, glad I finally read it here.
Readers: Insert the name of your least-fave site at the start of this sentence, for complete 'rigged' gratification, particularly after seeing an anomaly, getting beat bad, or having a losing session... Post to as many forums as you can find, you will get sympathy I promise.

There is one table per limit that is a no maximum buyin table. So you can buyin for any amount. I've seen people drop into those tables with as much as $500 before. Personally I love to see that, they usually play way too aggressively and it's not hard to take some cash from them.

May have been under a previous owner, but it is the present ownership that was guilty of dragging it's feet in the enquiry, hoping that the allegations would run out of steam.

I hate Ultimatebet for a different reason - their minimum deposit is $25. Their minimum withdrawal? $50! Crooks

However, their bonus NEVER expires, unlike every other site where there is a time frame for clearing/earning.

Hate it when Bonuses expire, hardly ever get them...damn work

Someone mentioned that they didn't like the way UB does their bonus points, you only get credit for hands that you've actually put money into the pot.

This month I decided to see what kind of points I could get on UB, playing $25 NL. Each month, like Stars, they reset your level and you have to play back to that level again.

To get to 2nd level required 50 points. At that level you start getting their UB points at 2x, not too many other real benefits.

Next level is 500 points. If you get there you can trade the 500 pts for $50. So seems a rather good idea.

I just don't have the attention span to make it though. So far I'm averaging 10 points per day, to get to 500 you need to average approx 17 a day. If I do play a long time one day I may get close enough to make it worthwhile to try to get to 500.

As far as I can tell the 500 pts for $50 is far better than anything Stars offers for 500 points.

I chalk up lots of points at micro horse an stud there, regardless of if I see river or not. Got a huge 111% signup bonus which will take a year to go through at my rate. Huns o bucks waiting for me to grind to. At .25 .50 can realize 5 bucks bonus every 2-3 hours (2 tables).
I like it, think the bonus setup is great (no pressure to meet deadlines), and points add up to money faster than stars or tilt, with no hassle or expiration date.
BTW I already withdrew my initial deposit and am playing with UBs (and your) money now. Only wish we had more players for non-holdem games...

I've got legend status @ ultimate bet. Play the stud games. It will rain ultimate points.

Btw Makwa, what's your Ultimatebet username? Never seen anyone named Makwa playing stud there.

Ultimate Bet was my first so was what I compared everything else to. I love it and was really glad that CC hosts UB tourneys and free rolls.

They are still the only site that I have deposited real money.

When it comes to play action/look and feel I think they beat FT hands down. FT lags so incredibly badly that I regularly see the pot being pushed before the river! Even if that is a problem with my machine, that NEVER happens at UB.

I also hate the goofy avatars at various poker sites, what possible benefit is there, just wastes bandwidth, IMO.

BTW Thang, if you want to communicate you relly need someone to proof your writing. Maybe try Microsoft Word or something.

I'm Panamajoe56 at UB.

Wots yrs?

I am Kitchi Makwa there.

i still have no idea what site ultimate bet is like, i may get it if it's anything like full tilt or poker stars

I don't think Gators was reffering to the Mohawks being in any way dishonest.
However, accusations against AP and UB are a different matter altogether. With regard to the KGC being a "trail blazer and leader"...you've got to be kidding. I don't think this is an avenue you really want to go down...a case in point being their recent refusal of recognition by an entire government.
Just because the KGC host a lot of servers doesn't automatically mean they're beyond criticism. Regulators have to prove themselves in any sector of business, it would appear that so far the KGC have failed to do this.

Well, the inference was 'indian tribe,' as being untrustworty. No I don't think he meant Mohawks because he didn't even know what people he was referring to.
Yes I will go down that road any time, because KGC got online poker on the map in the early days (go back 5 years or so) and got places such as Stars going. The unique status of Kahnawake as autonomous Mohawk territory within Canada made this possible.
Of couse they are open to criticism, and I didn't say I trusted the KGC, or any other self-proclaimed authority when it comes to online gaming. But they helped get it going and the history is there.
What 'refusal of recognition by and entire government' are you referring to? If you mean feds in Canada, yes they refuse to accept Mohawk autonomy, it is an ongoing dispute. Do you want Canada to assume responsibility for governing all those servers? It would shut them down overnight.
In any case, gaming is a provincial jurisdiction here so, feds have nothing to do with it. And the whole question of who has authority, when it comes to online, has not even touched the courts yet. It will be an unholy mess when it happens, can promise you that, between Natives, feds, provinces and god knows who else. The Americans will get involved too of course.
To sum up, don't accuse 'indian tribes' of being responsible for AP and UB, and yes, the KGC is to be watched closely. But so is every other 'regulator' of online gaming, be they in Cyprus, Greece, Isle of Man or wherever. They are all operating outside 'authority' of US courts, for instance.
Today in cyberspace, you pays yr money and u takes yr chances.

This is to whoever posted the comment about it being owned by a "Tribe"! I am not sure what you think in Tampa! But here in Canada, first off they are Native Canadians, not "Indians", and here in Canada they are our First Nations, and they are a nation recognized by not only the Canadian Gov't but yours as well! Please do not disrespect them or any other Canadians! Just because the previous owners were guilty of gaming infractions, it is completely ignorant to implicate an entire nation!

Back to the point, I love UB, the only complaint I have is that they would limit there tourney's to a smaller number of players! To start with 5000, just makes it a little long to play out!

I think UB should start Aboriginal-only tourneys. NDNs R US!
BTW 'Indian' is not necessarily a disrespectful term in US (American Indian), and is still in use somewhat here in Canada..
My point is that we should not label people as 'Indians' or 'Aboriginal' in a generic way, there are hundredss of peoples, languages and nations on both sides of the border, and they should be referred to with a bit of knowledge and respect, individually.
Labelling and lumping people together, as in 'those indians,' 'those blacks,' or 'those Americans,' does not help bring any understanding to any issue.

I agree, and I am not a native Canadian, I am from Dutch descent, i just felt like the comment about "Indian Tribe" was in bad taste. I live in Toronto, which is one of the most multi-cultural places in the world. I just would like everyone's background/beliefs to be respected, I think it would make not only the poker world, but the world in general a better place!

Well, seeing as the Dutch were one of the first to sign treaties (wampum) with the Mohawks, recognizing their nation status, going back 500 years, we will let you in our games!
Mind you, the relationship got a little messy after that.
I hope UB and AP survive all this scrutiny. As I said before, I think all this airing of dirty laundry will help keep online games and platforms a bit cleaner, at least for now.

Couldn't agree more...hope to read many more of your posts as they have been both informative and insightful. I think I might have learned more in the last few minutes reading this than...well, I can't honestly remember. I don't want to make anything an issue--just an honest thank you for your side of things. I'm neither Canadien nor Native American/Canadien but in my field of business, we deal with every walk of life. All I ask is that you all please, don't judge the book by the cover, as they say...

Er...no it wasn't. Not in any way whatsoever. The inference was that Absolute Poker/Ultimatebet are untrustworthy, which on their past history is difficult to argue against. Their behaviour following the superuser scandal was nothing short of disgraceful.

No, I don't mean the Canadian federal government. The UK government has recently refused the KGC recognition as they didn't meet the minimum criteria required to be added to their white list of authorities. The KGC's reaction to the Absolute Poker/Ultimatebet situation can't have helped in this matter coupled with their reluctance to allow a completely independent investigation unless it was by (and only by) organisations sanctioned by the KGC. They could have done themselves a big favour here but manged to let it slip through their fingers.

I think that's half the problem. The KGC operates outside of federal jurisdiction and are essentially a law unto themselves. Why not work with the federal authorities to instigate a pan-jurisdictional body that will be recocnised by outside authorities? Surely this can only be a positive move in gaining both kudos and prospective recognition.

This one deserves an apology from you. At no time in my post did I say, infer or intimate that this was the case. Of course it's not and for you to say otherwise is not only unacceptable but demeans your argument which is otherwise well put and eloquent.

However, I completely agree with your assertion that the KGC (and any other self-governing body for that matter) have to be watched closely. It's only because of dilligence from forums such as this that we stand a chance of increasing the acceptability of online gaming (and more specifically poker) into a mainstream acceptability. Indeed, it's because of reasoned argument such as this that together we stand a chance of bringing it about.

This is the quote being discussed. No point in going further with it until the poster reappears, his intent is not plain, but certainly seems to imply that the 'Kahnawake indian tribe' (an ignorant appelation and insult that has been answered by several people) is responsible for UBs disgrace. It is not responsible, is not an 'indian tribe' either.

No apology forthcoming, altho you do make some good pleas for cooperation on this. Unfortunately, UK with its 'white list' (interesting choice of colours), the US, Canada or anywhere else, there is no legislation governing online gaming overall, worldwide, and it is very unlikely to happen anytime soon. Meanwhile we have to work with the patchwork of poker rooms and 'authorities' that are evolving as we speak.
Myself, I do not welcome the day when federal governments decide to step in further and try to control what cannot be controlled, gaming in cyberspace, and my choice to play where I choose. Or whether I will be allowed to play poker online at all 'legally' (because we will al find a way) -- depending on how public debate goes on these issues, and how governments decide to govern and tax and monitor their citizens' behaviour with regard to this growing cash cow.

Having noted your comment regarding the specific post, I have to agree with you. That deserves an apology and one can only hope it was an inadvertent grammatical or syntax error rather than anything untoward. Either way a retraction is warranted.
With regard to the UK having "no legislation governing online gaming", nothing could be further from the truth. The UK has very, very stringent legislation regarding this and indeed, is being ammended all the time. From the 1968 Gaming and Lotteries Act to the 2005 Gambling Act it's now getting so tight that it's even difficult to install a fruit machine in some parts of the country. It is partly due to this evolutionary protocol that the KGC were refused staus on the white list, they need to be entirely beyond reproach.
The "white list" incidentaly is not really an "intersting use of colour" but stems from the white paper / green paper process that legislation passes through in the UK prior to becoming law. I won't bore you with the historical details but it's steeped in governmental tradition and refers to methods of production.
Finally, lets not fall out over this but why won't you acknowledge your error when you accused me of something I clearly didn't say?

Jolly right old bean, but this is his or hers to answer, not ours... enough please!
U eluded the second part of the sentence, referring to 'worldwide' and 'online.' Evolution schemovultion, 'entirely beyond reproach' is a bunch of gobblespeak in today's reality. Good for UK to move to legislate and scrutinize world gaming, GL and god speed. BTW I though UK was famous for fruit machines?
Can we get back to the thread re Ultimatebet?
It was the 'Royal you' I used, when referring to usage of terms, speaking to the readers and contributers. That you take it personally is telling. I'm not. Cheers mate, I'm no fan of the POMs, but I live w em.
BTW F all readers I, a new poker regime is emerging:

The quote says "do some research before you trust them with your money". Simple as that.

I don't know whether you know more about Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet than we do - how much of the following is incorrect.

Joe Norton, a Kahnawake elder, owns/owned Ultimate Bet & Absolute Poker (i guess you will agree with this - you were the one that said it).

Ultimate Bet and Absolute Poker are regulated by KGC (a HUGE conflict of interest, and one that should NEVER have been allowed. Agree or disagree?).

Players on Ultimate Bet and Absolute Poker were both found to have been defrauded by players able to use "superuser" access to see all the hole carrds on the table.

Ultimatebet and Absolute Poker are the only 2 sites to have been "found out" - i.e. no sites regulated outside of KGC have been found to have fraudulent activity.

KGC's audit and regulations are not considered strong enough by the UK govt to be added onto the whitelist of approved sites for online gaming sites.


Above doesn't look good for KGC. If anything above is incorrect, please feel free to correct me. If it isn't, please stop levelling accusations of racism against posters who are only stating matters of fact (and your comment re white paper being an interesting term to use - an apology is due from you there).

On the positive side though, it's nice to see you doing some proper posts. Most of your 300+ posts so far have been complete rubbish.

Yes, and he still owns it, as far as I know. He was also Grand Chief for many years. He did not own it until recently though, I don't know who the previous owners responsible for the fraud were. I'm sure the info is out there somewhere.

Yes, particularly given that is is likely that Chief Norton also has ties to KGC, through friends or relations.

I can't agree here, there may be (probably are) other sites that have found dishonest activity and shut up about it. Prob is most sites are self-regulated, so they can hide problems if they want to (and nobody finds out, as happened with the 2 above).

I don't know what the UK criteria are, and also don't know what sites are approved or why, also don't know if this list is just an advisory or is imposed on players in the UK. This would be a great topic for another thread. I also don't know that the statement above is correct or not, though I have no reason to doubt it.
My point is that the UK, US or any other state can't stop an international clientele from playing wherever they want to.


Again, the incestuous situation between the gaming rooms and KGC is not unusual, most sites are self-governed, and it has nothing to do with the broad and pejorative use of the term 'indian tribe.'
'White paper' is a governmental term yes, often mocked by marginalized peoples who are subject to colonial rule and/or the colonization process, as in the White Paper of 1968 in Canada, which sought to eliminate Native status, abolish all treaties, and forcibly assimilate (exterminate) First Nations people, languages and traditions in this country. Thankfully, it never went further than being a 'white' paper. Sorry you missed the reference, or if you did get it, glad you did.

If it's so 'proper,' why the ongoing demand for apologies? Glad to know someone is reading all my posts though, keep it up! Bully, wot!

The bottom line here is that there are simply too many questions regarding the KGC for them to be considered an effective regulator by anyone outside of the KGC themselves.
For those of us who make their living from writing about poker it didn't come as much of surprise to discover how ineffective the KGC really were after the Absolute Poker/Ultimatebet fiasco. Anyone else would have taken the licence away from this company the moment they tried to cover it up. If it had happened in any other sector of business prison sentences would have been dished out like candy at a kids party.
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that anyone other than AP/UB have commited fraud and deception in this manner and there are hundreds of groups and individuals around the World who scrutinise every operator with the utmost diligence.
When they were refused white list recognition, and to their everlasting shame, the KGC also sent a (publicly available) response to the UK government which basically accused them of racism. If it weren't for the fact that it was so laughably pathetic it would have been offensive.
The KGC could be a World leader in online gaming regulation if they got their act together as opposed to the laughing stock that many people have labelled them in virtually all of the forums.

I agree with most of this, well put after all this running around.
But for 2 points: 1) There are other instances of fraud and deception, perhaps not in the same manner, but they are there, collusion and chip dumping being two common ones, monitored and policed by sites using their own self-defined policies (ignore bots for now, go after whatever), which are as variable as the wind. Hundreds of sites, no uniformity or agreement with regard to enforcement. 2) I don't know who these 'hundreds of groups and individuals around the world' who scrutinize 'every operator with such diligence...' might be. Wow. Do they have an organization? Do they have a set of policies? Do they have authority beyond their physical borders? Seriously -- there is little scrutiny and less enforcement of dishonest online practices. The KGC mess is a case in point -- nobody has been charged with anything anywhere. It's a case of the inmates running the asylum at this juncture. Worldwide. (Except the UK of course as we have seen, but that authority is limited -- KGC is thriving, acceptance or no).

Meanwhile:

ULTIMATE ROCKS!! (at least until I clear my bonus).

Both AP and UB have loads of daily freerolls to play. Not the forum freerolls though so there are many more players per game and only 63 places for AP and 20-30 places for money at UB. It is harder to win because of numbers. One of the first sites I registered at.

Sure, there are plenty of instances of collusion, chip dumping, etc. but these involve registered players. AP/UB was a company employee/corporate fraud and/or cover-up, and remains the only operator known to be guilty of such activity.
There are networks of individuals who liase through repected forums to monitor site activity. Indeed, it was only through the efforts of such people that the AP thing was uncovered, and more importantly, proved. Some of these guys I know personally. There are also a number of privately operated companies that monitor site activity for reasons of security and marketing but this is private enterprise.
I agree wholeheartedly with your assertion, it is unacceptable that it's left to such people to carry out a job that should be the responsibility of the KGC...and even less so when they fail to act on it.

As a matter if interest, the KGC released a press statement today regarding the AP/UB scandal.

It's possibly the most laughable, banal, non commital bunch of nonsense I've ever read. Have these guys got any credibility left at all?