Tournament Ruling Inconsistency, Too Many Chips as Min-raise or Call.

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Watching the EPT recently I was confused by an inconsistency in rulings.

If a player puts too many chips in to make a call, but not enough to make a minimum raise, how should it be ruled?

First Scenario:
Player1 raised to 32k
Player2 3bet to 87k (55k to call)
Player1 wanted to raise but only put another 81k in totalling 113k.
It was ruled to be a Call and player1 had to take back the extra 26k.

Second Scenario:
Player1 raised to 41k
Player2 3bet to 83k (42k to call)
This time the first player meant to call but put in another 75k totalling 116k
But this time it was ruled that a min raise was required and the player was forced to make it up to 125k.

I can't see any difference in the two scenarios and find it strange that there should be such an inconsistency in such a major tournament series.

(In a third case with a bet of 180k and an accidental over call of 270k this was again ruled to be a min raise and had to be made up to 360k).

I understand different venues and different tournament directors can have different interpretations, but I don't understand how it can be different in the same tournament.
 
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That's weird. If it is exactly as you say, probably just an inconsistent ruling? Or maybe something to do with the number of chips used?
 
S3mper

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the rule is if you don't announce raise or call that if you put enough chips to call but not enough to make a min raise it is just a call so example if player 1 bets $2 at 1/2 and player 2 puts in $3 it is ruled a call and 1$ will be retrieved to player 2.

The 2nd example doesn't make sense to me so I wonder if the player announced raise or if he put enough to call but not enough to make the min raise...

If these examples are on youtube please post them so we can get a better view on the situation.

If I'm wrong about the rule please correct me would hate to be giving bad info.
 
JusSumguy

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If he put in too many and made no announcement with his mouth, than a min raise should be ordered.

Too many chips is a raise. Just not enough. But it is an announcement of a raise.

-
 
S3mper

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S3mper said:
the rule is if you don't announce raise or call that if you put enough chips to call but not enough to make a min raise it is just a call so example if player 1 bets $2 at 1/2 and player 2 puts in $3 it is ruled a call and 1$ will be retrieved to player 2.

The 2nd example doesn't make sense to me so I wonder if the player announced raise or if he put enough to call but not enough to make the min raise...

If these examples are on youtube please post them so we can get a better view on the situation.

If I'm wrong about the rule please correct me would hate to be giving bad info.
Click to expand...
I think I'm wrong lol if a player bets $3 and means to call then a min raise is needed.... SO yeah maybe the dealer or floor man got it wrong...
 
tenbob

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EPT Barc ?

As far as I could see, floor was excerising some major discression where a big name pro was concerned, and seemed to be hammering the rec's. Again, maybe its TV table syndrome, but just friggin announce your intentions.
 
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tenbob said:
EPT Barc ?

As far as I could see, floor was excerising some major discression where a big name pro was concerned, and seemed to be hammering the rec's. Again, maybe its TV table syndrome, but just friggin announce your intentions.
Click to expand...

Yup.
 
OzExorcist

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*walks in late*

I haven't seen the actual footage of this game, but unfortunately it sounds like what Tenbob has said is accurate - quite often big-name pros are allowed a fair bit of latitude when they're on a TV table, I guess because if they're being billed as the expert players who are supposed to be the big drawcard for the audience, it doesn't look good when they're constantly getting pulled up for making rookie mistakes. Most often you see it with regard to string betting (as in, I don't think I've ever seen a pro get in trouble for string betting on TV, despite the fact that many of them do it all the time) but this is another example.

As far as the rules go in a general situation, what matters is exactly how the overbet/underraise is made.

If it's a single oversized chip then it's standard for it to be ruled a call. If it's multiple chips though then it's deemed an underraise and they player is obliged to put in enough additional chips to constitute a minimum raise. Relevant bits from Roberts Rules of Poker Section 14 (No Limit and Pot Limit):

10. A bet of a single chip or bill without comment is considered to be the full amount of the chip or bill allowed. However, a player acting on a previous bet with a larger denomination chip or bill is calling the previous bet unless this player makes a verbal declaration to raise the pot. (This includes acting on the forced bet of the big blind.)

11. If a player tries to bet or raise less than the legal minimum and has more chips, the wager must be increased to the proper size (but no greater). This does not apply to a player who has unintentionally put too much in to call.​

Out of interest, who was the offending player in question?
 
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Thanks for clarifications Oz,
I was aware of the single chip ruling, having learnt the hard way by lobbing in a big chip without ' friggin announcing intentions'. :eek:

In all these cases though it was multiple extra chips.

11. ~~~increased to the proper size (but no greater). This does not apply to a player who has unintentionally put too much in to call.
Kinda hard to interpret the unintentional part, Looks like saying 'oh I only meant to call' doesn't cut it though.

So the general rule would be that it will be increased. (So in the first case Roberto Romanello shouldn't have had his chips returned for the call, and in fact his intention of raising should have been forced to be a very weak looking min raise.

The second and third scenarios the same amateur who simply couldn't count chips under the pressure could perhaps have been classed as unintentional but got hammered with the first part of the regs.

Always appreciate the Ozy rules, not just for football,
confirming what JusSumguy and tenbob had said about this situation.
Thanks to all contributors for helping me with my puzzlement.
 
robhimself

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The standard rule I've seen is that if you put in more that half of a raise it's a raise, and less than half is a call. For instance, if someone bets $10 on the flop and you say nothing and throw out $14, it's a call and you take back the $4 extra, but if you throw out $16 it's a raise to $20. As for a 3bet situation, lets say someone bets $10, player 2 raises to $35 (so a $25 raise) and the original bettor now pulls back his $10 and puts out a total of $45. This would just be a call, as he only added $10 to a $25 raise. If he had put out $50 total that would be more than half, so he would be forced to raise to $60 total.
 
OzExorcist

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robhimself said:
The standard rule I've seen is that if you put in more that half of a raise it's a raise, and less than half is a call. For instance, if someone bets $10 on the flop and you say nothing and throw out $14, it's a call and you take back the $4 extra, but if you throw out $16 it's a raise to $20. As for a 3bet situation, lets say someone bets $10, player 2 raises to $35 (so a $25 raise) and the original bettor now pulls back his $10 and puts out a total of $45. This would just be a call, as he only added $10 to a $25 raise. If he had put out $50 total that would be more than half, so he would be forced to raise to $60 total.
Click to expand...

Sorry but that's not true - at least not going by the standard rules in big bet (ie: pot limit or no limit) games.

Under Rule 11 cited above it doesn't matter whether it's less than half a raise or not - if you bet more, even a single ante chip more, you can be required to make it a full raise.

The half a full raise thing does apply to a few situations in limit games, but it's not used in PL or NL games.

Chemist said:
11. ~~~increased to the proper size (but no greater). This does not apply to a player who has unintentionally put too much in to call.
Kinda hard to interpret the unintentional part, Looks like saying 'oh I only meant to call' doesn't cut it though.
Click to expand...

True - I take that to mostly apply in situations where the player has already verbalised "call", and then somehow still manages to put too many chips in the pot. Though that would be a redundancy, since there's already a rule that says verbal action is binding.

It's like everything in poker I guess, the floor always has a degree of latitude to decide something based on fairness. Or unfairness, as the case may be :p
 
robhimself

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OzExorcist said:
Sorry but that's not true - at least not going by the standard rules in big bet (ie: pot limit or no limit) games.

Under Rule 11 cited above it doesn't matter whether it's less than half a raise or not - if you bet more, even a single ante chip more, you can be required to make it a full raise.

The half a full raise thing does apply to a few situations in limit games, but it's not used in PL or NL games.



True - I take that to mostly apply in situations where the player has already verbalised "call", and then somehow still manages to put too many chips in the pot. Though that would be a redundancy, since there's already a rule that says verbal action is binding.

It's like everything in poker I guess, the floor always has a degree of latitude to decide something based on fairness. Or unfairness, as the case may be :p
Click to expand...

So the EPT doesn't use Robert's Rules? I thought those were pretty standardized for the bigger tourneys. Robert's rules states:

14. String raises are not allowed. To protect your right to raise, you should either declare your intention verbally or place the proper amount of chips into the pot. Putting a full bet plus a half-bet or more into the pot is considered to be the same as announcing a raise, and the raise must be completed.
 
OzExorcist

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I actually don't know what rules the EPT uses - one of the big problems with poker is that there is no universal rule set. Most major tournaments use a combination of Robert's Rules and the Tournament Director's Association rules, and then give their tournament directors latitude to bend the rules as they see fit after that.

With regard to string bets, that's one of the rules that you'll most often see ignored, especially on televised tables. I think I've said it before, but it's a lot like the travel rule in the NBA - the infraction will often be ignored, as long as you do something cool afterwards.

As for Rule 14 note that it comes from Section 3 (General Poker Rules) of Robert's Rules, which applies to all games, and it doesn't necessarily contradict Section 14 Rule 11 that I quoted earlier either - if it's more than half it's got to be a minraise and if it's less than half it seems it has to be a minraise too. Section 3 Rule 14 doesn't actually say that anything less than half a bet is a call.
 
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