That's debatable: NLHE v PLO

Following on from WVH's idea in this thread, below is my opening argument in the debate that NLHE is a better game to concentrate on than PLO. Marginal should be along in time to argue the PLO side. Please save any responses until after he's had a chance to put his case as well.

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My opposition in this debate, the esteemed and highly respectable Marginal, is going to try to convince you that PLO is a better game to play than NLHE. Some of his arguments may sound plausible - you may find yourselves nodding your heads in agreement and thinking "He's right, PLO really is an untapped gold mine of donks and lulz". So it's a good thing you've got me here to tell you that he is a false prophet and no matter how convincing his arguments may sound NLHE is the game you really want to be playing.

There are a bunch of different reasons for making NLHE your preferred game.
One of the obvious ones is that it's the game pretty much all new players start with. As we all know, most new players are easy prey that just give away their money so it's hard to ignore the sheer quantity of them at NLHE tables. These players aren't restricted to the low stakes by the way: new players with money from outside poker come to NLHE tables to spew it away at pretty much all stakes. Obviously there are fish at PLO tables too but the sheer quantity of them that flow straight onto the NLHE tables can't be ignored.

NLHE also gives you the freedom to choose the game format you'll play those fish at. PLO only really has one format that runs with any frequency: short handed cash games, either 6-max or HU. If that's not to your tastes you're not likely to get much PLO action. NLHE players, on the other hand, have the freedom to choose from HU, 6-max or full ring, SnGs and MTTs, all of which run around the clock with about as much action as you can handle and all stakes. That's just talking online, by the way. If you play live there are a lot of places in the world where you won't get any PLO action at all. In almost all cases if there's a game going to run NLHE will be the first choice. You'll be faced with situations where it's "NLHE or nothing" a lot more often than situations where PLO is the only game running.

Anyone with aspirations of becoming a sponsored professional has to play NLHE by the way. TV viewers have made it clear time and time again that the only game they want to watch is NLHE and if you want to become a sponsored pro you have to play on TV... which means you have to play NLHE.

The sheer number of resources available to a player learning NLHE vastly outweighs those available to a PLO player. There are thousands of books available on NLHE in all of its different formats. There are loads of knowledgeable NLHE players willing to share their experience and insights on forums. There are odds calculators, ICM calculators, hand charts and all sorts of other tools available. Yes, PLO players have resources too but they're not available in the same quantity and nor are they as easy to find.

In summary NLHE is a game with a constant stream of new fish. It gives you the freedom to play a wide variety of game formats and there are loads of resources available to help you learn them. If you're career-minded it's a game you have to be able to play and the action is endless.

And if you need any further convincing I'll leave you with this last thought: PLO makes your hair fall out. Just look at two of the game's most famous players, Ziigmund and Patrik Antonius

Thank you and goodnight.

One of the obvious ones is that it's the game pretty much all new players start with. As we all know, most new players are easy prey that just give away their money so it's hard to ignore the sheer quantity of them at NLHE tables. These players aren't restricted to the low stakes by the way: new players with money from outside poker come to NLHE tables to spew it away at pretty much all stakes. Obviously there are fish at PLO tables too but the sheer quantity of them that flow straight onto the NLHE tables can't be ignored.

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This use to be a thing of the past but the game has grown to a level where there a lot of bad players out there and the excuse that there are not as mean good games is rubbish. The fact is there are more than 16 tables running at ftp at almost all levels and there is no way you can't find a good game.

NLHE also gives you the freedom to choose the game format you'll play those fish at. PLO only really has one format that runs with any frequency: short handed cash games, either 6-max or HU. If that's not to your tastes you're not likely to get much PLO action. NLHE players, on the other hand, have the freedom to choose from HU, 6-max or full ring, SnGs and MTTs, all of which run around the clock with about as much action as you can handle and all stakes. That's just talking online, by the way. If you play live there are a lot of places in the world where you won't get any PLO action at all. In almost all cases if there's a game going to run NLHE will be the first choice. You'll be faced with situations where it's "NLHE or nothing" a lot more often than situations where PLO is the only game running.

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PLO is rapidly being spread in more casinos world wide and is already a common game in Europe. Secondly ask anybody who is a FR reg how much he lost taking shots at 6 max and HU. It is a lot. This does not happen to PLO players because they dont have the option and they have the discipline.

Anyone with aspirations of becoming a sponsored professional has to play NLHE by the way. TV viewers have made it clear time and time again that the only game they want to watch is NLHE and if you want to become a sponsored pro you have to play on TV... which means you have to play NLHE.

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Skjervoy plays only PLO and became big playing PLO and got sponsored. Yes 5 years ago it wont have happened but there are becoming more PLO specialist and they are being recognised more often these days.

The sheer number of resources available to a player learning NLHE vastly outweighs those available to a PLO player. There are thousands of books available on NLHE in all of its different formats. There are loads of knowledgeable NLHE players willing to share their experience and insights on forums. There are odds calculators, ICM calculators, hand charts and all sorts of other tools available. Yes, PLO players have resources too but they're not available in the same quantity and nor are they as easy to find.

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The fact that there are more resources mean that fish can get better and that the standard of the average player has gone up in the past few years. No arguement there. And as well there are more resources available now on DC and Cardrunners that you should really never not be able to find anything.


Im not going to address your conclusion because I broke it down above but PLO is mistaken for a complicated game. It is not. There are things that people may not understand but the average player can make more money in a quicker time playing PLO than they can playing NLHE because the average player is weaker and because it is so enticing for people to play marginal hands.

PLO has one simple concept and that is position wins the day. I can beat anybody once I have position, not so in NLHE.

Oh and if that does not convince you enough. I have had well over 10, 20BI days playing omaha cash from stakes ranging from 10PLO to 100PLO. How many have you had? And my winrate is sick. If NLHE is so easy, let me see what your results say.

While I agree that PLO is a great game serious players almost have to focus on NLH first just because its the gateway drug for the fish. Having said that Marginal is actually making me want to learn more PLO due to his posts. It sounds like a lot of fun/profit.

I'm curious as to whether you've had 5-10 BI downswings at PLO? Seems very swingy to me.

On the resources topic, I concur that there are more NLHE resources but this has made the game much tougher. Everyone has easy access to loads of resources online, even those with little propensity to search online will find the FTPA flashing at the side of their lobby every other minute. PLO seems like it has a constant stream of players there to 'try it out', especially at the micro stakes.

I'll still stick to NLHE because I know it so well, the only problem is, so does everyone is.

I've had more 5BI down days than I care to image (hint it is a lot) but its part of the game. You cant expect to win a lot if you are not putting yourself into situations that you are not 85% in. You gotta flip sometimes and take those 55/45s

If I may present my rebuttal:

marginal said:

This use to be a thing of the past but the game has grown to a level where there a lot of bad players out there and the excuse that there are not as mean good games is rubbish. The fact is there are more than 16 tables running at ftp at almost all levels and there is no way you can't find a good game.

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Not the case unfortunately. I'm looking at the FTP lobby now, at the following stakes this is the number of PLO tables with games running right now:

$2 - 11 tables
$5 - 7 tables
$10 - 7 tables
$25 - an admittedly impressive 19 tables
$50 - 10 tables
$100 - 9 tables

That's compared to at least 90-100 active full ring tables at all those stakes in NLHE (with the exception of $5NL, which has about 50 active) and about the same number again in 6-max NLHE tables.

I'm sure there are good games to be found among the ones available for PLO. But what about multitablers? I honestly don't know if mass-multitabling is as common among PLO players as it is among NLHE players but it certainly looks like anyone wanting to try it has less options and less action. Maybe that'll change in the future but we're talking about the state of the game now.

marginal said:

PLO is rapidly being spread in more casinos world wide and is already a common game in Europe.

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Even so, NLHE is still the live game of choice in most of the world. The main event at pretty much every tournament series in the world is NLHE - hell the majority of tournaments main events or otherwise are NLHE.

Even if you have access to a casino that spreads PLO cash games most will have a lot more NLHE tables open at a wider variety of stakes. And when a drunk casino punter decides to have a bash at poker you can be almost certain it'll be NLHE, the game he's seen on TV, that he'll be playing instead of PLO.

marginal said:

Skjervoy plays only PLO and became big playing PLO and got sponsored. Yes 5 years ago it wont have happened but there are becoming more PLO specialist and they are being recognised more often these days.

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A rare exception - for every example like this there are dozens that get sponsored because they played NLHE on TV. If you want to become a sponsored pro your best bet is always going to be playing NLHE. Again, maybe PLO mania will sweep the world at some point in the future and all this will change but right now there's no argument that this is the state of play.

marginal said:

The fact that there are more resources mean that fish can get better and that the standard of the average player has gone up in the past few years. No arguement there. And as well there are more resources available now on DC and Cardrunners that you should really never not be able to find anything.

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A fair point. I will point out though that for the fish to get better they first have to want to get better and go looking for these resources. It's not like their availability has dried up the pool of NLHE fish and in some cases reading has actually made the fish worse players - how many have lost buyin after buyin misapplying some advanced concept that they don't really understand and isn't appropriate to the game they're playing in the first place?

Your point stands, I'm just saying for most of the members of sites like this the benefits of widely available, often free resources (the PLO ones you've mentioned are probably out of the price range of most beginning players) almost certainly outweigh the downside of slightly better educated fish and they make NLHE a more attractive game to play.

I am the greatest 5 card stud player alive.

At the lowest levels of PLO (is all that I've played) you get the added benefit of HE players who haven't figured out that you can't win a four flush with your lone Ace of the suit or how you could possibly river a straight and the like. Happens more so in tournaments I think; at cash tables they've usually figured that out or gone broke already.

marginal said:

PLO has one simple concept and that is position wins the day. I can beat anybody once I have position, not so in NLHE.

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Does this apply at $10 PLO?

Yes it does.