TAG is not the way to be in holdem

Hi all, for what could be my final post

I`ve been playing poker for over a year now and have recently become more and more frustrated with ppl saying what u should or what u should not do playing poker.

A few things have come to mind over time.

One is "If u play at a tight table, loosen up, at a loose table, tighten up"

This statement does seem to contradict itself. Say u r at a table where there are 4 loose players. U should tighten up? Now, say 3 of the 4 tighten up, leaving one to keep playing loose. The loose player is now in the position we are told u should be - at a tight table play loose.

Another big problem you have - it is impossible to beat someone who does not care if they win or lose. By the time u get a half decent hand to take them on with they have either got so many chips u do not stop them or they muff u out.

Another is "it does not matter what stakes u play, u still get muffed out" Then in their next breath, u get the same ppl asking what stakes are you playing when u post a hand analysis

I`ve enjoyed the banter here but I feel that I do not have the mindset to continue to play poker - I can`t get away from the fact that the game is more of a game of chance than a lot of ppl are prepared to admit!!!

GL to all of u, I might b back in the future, but the way I feel at present I would be better off investing my money in the lottery - better return and everyone admits it`s a game of chance!!!

we would surely miss you here. everyone has different opinons and you are certainly entitled to yours. just because your opinons differ don't leave . it is this difference in us all that make for a great forum. the open discussions on various thoughts and opinons

pokerrqueenn said:

we would surely miss you here. everyone has different opinons and you are certainly entitled to yours. just because your opinons differ don't leave . it is this difference in us all that make for a great forum. the open discussions on various thoughts and opinons

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It`s not the forum thats the problem, it`s poker!!!

I have come to the conclusion I just can`t get my head around it!!!

Ppl say that skill wins in the long run. I`m sure that is the case, but when u get your top hand, play it perfectly and u r muffed it always seems to be at the major time in a tourny. Then u get AA on the BB and the whole table folds around to u when the previous hand some muppet was chasing a runner runner flush draw with 59h it makes u wonder.

I also find the more I find out the worse I have become. I`ll now sit with JJ mid way through a tourny, get rereraised and put my hand down to find I was ahead - when I first started I would have pushed and been none the wiser!!! It seems the more `experienced` I get the fewer hands and chances I take.

just take a break for a bit

pokerrqueenn said:

just take a break for a bit

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I am - for the rest of my life

Its the game, general. It seem whatever hand I get I am beaten. Hand I`ve just finished. AQ on button. Flop 10,4,Q rainbow. I bet it out in limit. Other guys turns KK. 5 hands previous, I am delt KK. Bet it out, no ace. Guy turns trip 7`s on river. And on it goes.

It`s now too late as I have withdraw all of my money out of my poker accounts - nothing left to loose!!!

Cya all

It's probably useless to quote: " Poker is one long session." Maybe it's good to take a break. I've not played for a long time, so I can't really say if I'll end up as jaded.

This month has been a real bad month for me too... Until I read something on Ed Miller's blog. I was feeling really frustrated over my results, I'm just getting beats on every single table.

Here's something from his blog I'd like to share:

One poster claims that it is impossible to play against “schooling fish” (my term, not his). He gives an example where pocket kings will lose to 6 callers 74% of the time, therefore it’s impossible to beat the “fish”.Then a poster named “kosh”, who incidentally claims in another post to have never played a hand of poker in his life, points out that even though you only win 1 in 4 hands, you get a 6 to 1 payoff with 6 callers.


So it seems to me that kosh is right, and the “real” players are wrong. Not only that, one of the posters (luvdoinit) seems to think that the only answer to the “problem” is to educate the fish into better players, so they won’t school any more!

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Here's another passage from one of his post:

I think the best path to pro poker is to keep it fun, keep it a hobby. Work on yourself, your skills. Ignore your results. If you do that long enough and well enough, one day you’ll wake up a professional player. I did.

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Taking a short break might be good. Be well.

you say that now. but never say never

Sorry to hear your thinking of stopping playing - but then, i often say number 1 rule should be 'enjoy it' and it doesn't sound like you are

Perhaps a little break or try playing different styles.

Hope you stay or resume your game, even if you dont good luck whatever you choose.

and as if to back my case...

this is the last 2 hands I played...without gaps

PokerStars Game #8865984992: Hold'em Limit ($1/$2) - 2007/03/12 - 12:34:35 (ET) Table 'Vala III' 10-max Seat #7 is the button Seat 1: skyworldln ($102.50 in chips) Seat 2: ronaldadio ($6 in chips) Seat 3: 4708romain ($51 in chips) Seat 4: jasonodo ($48.75 in chips) Seat 5: Gina1988 ($46.50 in chips) Seat 6: miracle card ($16 in chips) Seat 7: O'DoyleRules ($49 in chips) Seat 8: Zoren Elvaan ($16.50 in chips) Seat 9: Thulsadoon ($40 in chips) Seat 10: Henry17 ($21.75 in chips) Zoren Elvaan: posts small blind $0.50
Thulsadoon: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ronaldadio [9h Qh]
Henry17: folds
skyworldln: folds
ronaldadio: raises $1 to $2
4708romain: folds
jasonodo: folds
Gina1988: folds
miracle card: folds
O'DoyleRules: folds
ronaldadio said, "says it all???"
Zoren Elvaan: calls $1.50
Thulsadoon: folds
*** FLOP *** [8d 7s Td]
Zoren Elvaan: checks
ronaldadio: bets $1
Zoren Elvaan: calls $1
*** TURN *** [8d 7s Td] [6h]
Zoren Elvaan: checks
ronaldadio: bets $2
Zoren Elvaan: calls $2
*** RIVER *** [8d 7s Td 6h] [Ad]
Zoren Elvaan: bets $2
ronaldadio: calls $1 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Zoren Elvaan: shows [3d 5d] (a flush, Ace high)
ronaldadio: shows [9h Qh] (a straight, Six to Ten) Zoren Elvaan collected $12.50 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $13 | Rake $0.50
Board [8d 7s Td 6h Ad]
Seat 1: skyworldln folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 2: ronaldadio showed [9h Qh] and lost with a straight, Six to Ten Seat 3: 4708romain folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 4: jasonodo folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: Gina1988 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 6: miracle card folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: O'DoyleRules (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: Zoren Elvaan (small blind) showed [3d 5d] and won ($12.50) with a flush, Ace high Seat 9: Thulsadoon (big blind) folded before Flop Seat 10: Henry17 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
*********** # 2 **************
PokerStars Game #8865974190: Hold'em Limit ($1/$2) - 2007/03/12 - 12:33:30 (ET) Table 'Vala III' 10-max Seat #6 is the button Seat 1: skyworldln ($102.50 in chips) Seat 2: ronaldadio ($17 in chips) Seat 3: 4708romain ($51 in chips) Seat 4: jasonodo ($48.75 in chips) Seat 5: Gina1988 ($46.50 in chips) Seat 6: miracle card ($16 in chips) Seat 7: O'DoyleRules ($38 in chips) Seat 8: Zoren Elvaan ($17.50 in chips) Seat 9: ventie ($103.50 in chips) Seat 10: Henry17 ($21.75 in chips)
O'DoyleRules: posts small blind $0.50
Zoren Elvaan: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ronaldadio [Tc Kc]
ventie: folds
Henry17: folds
skyworldln: folds
ronaldadio: calls $1
4708romain: folds
jasonodo: folds
Gina1988: folds
miracle card: folds
O'DoyleRules: calls $0.50
Zoren Elvaan: checks
*** FLOP *** [Th Kd 3c]
O'DoyleRules: bets $1
Zoren Elvaan: folds
ronaldadio: raises $1 to $2
O'DoyleRules: raises $1 to $3
ronaldadio: raises $1 to $4
Betting is capped
O'DoyleRules: calls $1
*** TURN *** [Th Kd 3c] [Qh]
ventie leaves the table
O'DoyleRules: bets $2
ronaldadio: raises $2 to $4
O'DoyleRules: calls $2
*** RIVER *** [Th Kd 3c Qh] [8h]
Thulsadoon joins the table at seat #9
O'DoyleRules: checks
ronaldadio: bets $2
O'DoyleRules: calls $2
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ronaldadio: shows [Tc Kc] (two pair, Kings and Tens)
O'DoyleRules: shows [Ks Qd] (two pair, Kings and Queens) O'DoyleRules collected $22 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $23 | Rake $1
Board [Th Kd 3c Qh 8h]
Seat 1: skyworldln folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 2: ronaldadio showed [Tc Kc] and lost with two pair, Kings and Tens Seat 3: 4708romain folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 4: jasonodo folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: Gina1988 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 6: miracle card (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 7: O'DoyleRules (small blind) showed [Ks Qd] and won ($22) with two pair, Kings and Queens Seat 8: Zoren Elvaan (big blind) folded on the Flop Seat 9: ventie folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 10: Henry17 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Wow, intersesting post, and i think if you really feel like that then certainly poker is not the game for you. At this stage in my poker career i can lose a full buy-in at $100 NL and not even flinch, not in the slightest. Ive been though some unreal downswings and some savage upswings as well, but now when i sit down at a table i see this session as a contuination of the last, even if i loose a few big ones because of someone elses bad play, ill still be looking for the bad players to make that bad pre-flop call, or mis-timed turn bluff with a gutshot.

Poker is a game that is fluid, its always changing, the dynamics of the game are constantly evolving, every session will be different, there is no 100% correct way to play, and as such learning and mastering the game takes a lifetime. Enjoy your journey, and just put a little consideration in dropping holdem, there is always some juicy o8 tables out there you know

So you are going to quit poker because you lost a $13 pot and $23 pot on the river playing $1/$2 LIMIT?

Losing those pots shouldn't put you over the edge, but having been at the edge myself, I can kinda understand where you are coming from. Heck, last fall I came on here and was ready to quit after I reraised all in for $150 playing $1/$2 NL at the Taj and got called by someone who had hit the flop and rivered 2 pair on me.

But I took a short break, got back on the horse, and I've had my ups and downs since then. I was up for the year until Saturday, when playing $1/$2 NL in AC, I got it in with 2 pair on the turn and got counterfeited on the river.

Got to enjoy it matey otherwise it's not worth the effort.

I think you are looking to play the "right" way a bit too much from this and other posts you've made.

Perhaps you are also taking advice too literally. When people say looser or tighter they usually mean "on average" rather than all the time. Poker is a game of many variables and they change every hand. Although there are sometimes moves that are right and wrong for any given hand, often it's a question of degree. When it comes to deciding the right and wrong thing over a session or a week or a month it becomes very complex and searching for the right move all the time is going to drive you nuts.

And of course you can play perfect poker and lose over quite a long while. It's not luck because in the long run you will win. The long run though is veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyyyyy loooooooooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnngggggg.


If this isn't just a form of tilt though and you are really done with then I wish you all the best matey

You need to switch games for a while. Forget the holdem. Go to omaha and play that for a while. It clears the mind and believe it or not makes you a better hold em player. Just make sure you know the rules. You get a lot of chasers there that don't pan out.

The other thing you need to do is find your game. It looks like limit isn't it for you. It took me a while to find it but 6 handed turbo no limit is where I rape them. I have a knack for playing it and do very well at it. Try different games and amounts to find out where you are suited to play. We all can't be ring game monsters.

I probably could have been a pro. Bridge player that is. Bridge is really the ultimate controllable card game. However, it requires 2 to get good at it, it is a team game.

I would also suggest changing games. If poker in total is bumming you out, try bridge. If only holdem is making you sad, try HORSE. That way only about 1/4 of the games will bum you out. What? not 1/5? no. More holdem hands per round than omaha or razz, or either of the studs.

To add to what TB said, I could lose (and have lost) 4 buy ins in an hour to bad beats and horrible suck out plays. What does that tell me?? I got my money in while ahead and you can't win them all. Would you be complaining about these guys if they didn't hit? No. The fact is that they still have a % to win each hand (regardless if it is 27os vs AA) which means that every now and then AA will lose. As for me, I'll put my money in every time against someones gutshot ot TPTK. Will I always win? No, but I will win more than I lose in the long run.

If you look at that one hand where AA does lose to 2-7 and say "that if this can happen, I am going to quit", then hold'em definitely isn't your game. Try playing some 5 card draw.

gord962 said:

If you look at that one hand where AA does lose to 2-7 and say "that if this can happen, I am going to quit", then hold'em definitely isn't your game. Try playing some tiddlywinks.

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fyp

Dorkus Malorkus said:

fyp

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fyp = ???

cardrunners

go to my new thread and get a membership there it will improve game 10 fold.

First, try having 12x the big bet in front of you at all times when playing limit (I wont go too far into the reason, but that's enough to see it capped on all streets for one hand).

Second, do you have PokerTracker? There is absolutely no reason not to spend $55 bucks on it, it will pay you back, trust me. You will be able to see if you are playing too many hands, and if you are playing them too passively for starters.

Third, take a bit of a look at your game a bit. Why did you open raise w Q9s, but limp in with KTo? Do you even need to play either of those (dominated) hands at all? Why are you drawing to a one card straight when there is a flush tainting your outs? I don't want to really argue too much about the actual play of the hands, but I suspect your game needs more work than you might want to admit. TAG is the way to be in limit, but I suspect you are less TAG than you care to admit (PT will give you this in black and white).

Anyway, here is a plan of attack should you decide you want to win at this game:

STAGE ONE:
1. Buy Pokertracker.
2. Buy Ed Millers's "Getting Started in Holdem". The limit section is excellent, and a very good introduction to some of the concepts you need to really understand.
3. Play 500-1000 hands of limit trying to incorporate what you learned from reading GSIH. STAY DISCIPLINED! Don't try to get fancy, just follow his staring requirements, and try to work on things like raising for value on a nut flush draw in late position with lots of opponents and "buying a free card", plays you may or may not have been familiar with before.
4. Look at your results. Use Poker Tracker to replay some hands you think you may have made a mistake in. THINK about the game.

STAGE TWO:
5. Re-read Miller's book.
6. Play 500-1000 more hands.
7. Repeat until you think you are getting a handle on it, or feel you need more information/learning to advance.

STAGE THREE:
8. Buy "Small Stakes Holdem" by Ed Miller (the book has Sklansky and Millers name on it as well, but it was written by Miller). This book is probably too much to start out with if, so that's why I recommended GSIH first.
9. Buy "Texas Holdem odds and Probabilities" by Matt Hilger.
10. READ them, one at a time-- I suggest Hilger first. Take your time, work through the test questions. You can even take notes. Underline the important concepts, write in the margins! Treat it like a serious course of study. Remember school? Even if you never look at your notes again, the very fact that you codified the concepts in the book in writing will help to insure that you leaned/understood the concepts, that it didn't just go in one ear and out the other.

That's the START.

Is it as fun as playing, no. Will it make playing more fun, yes-- winning is fun. Write down questions you have, concepts you don't quite understand. You can't ask the authors or a teacher but you can post here ! People will give you their opinions, you can discourse, you can learn (we all can).

As you play more hands, grasp more poker theory, the variance (suckouts) will start to effect you less. You might always struggle with it to some degree, I know I still am. But hopefully we can continue to deepen our poker knowledge and obtain the zen like enlightenment that comes with true mastery.

As you can see poker takes some WORK, some effort to get good at. If you don't want to put in this effort you don't, in my opinion, have any right to complain. You don't have to be a winning player to enjoy poker-- obviously a great majority of players are not winning overall but continue to play. They either do it for for enjoyment, or they are self-delusional, or a combination of both. But the greatest happiness' we get in life are often those things that we dedicated some effort to and found some success. Going on a rollercoaster ride might be fun, might make us happy, but anyone can do that. That's part of the reason it's transient happiness-- remember: if it were easy everyone would do it.

Ok, enough rant-- go forth and do grasshopper.

I would take a break for a few days or weeks and see if the love for poker comes back.

I see you're not happy about getting "muffed", it sounds quite nice to me!

There may, or may not, be things wrong with your game. But that isnt the main problem. The main problem is your expectation.

Rather than worrying about individual hands losing you should have a broader viewpoint.

eg 'I am going to play 1000 hands in x time and I hope to make a profit of 15BB' (so, at the tables you are playing at, this would translate to $30 profit in something like 17 hours of play)

Now 17 hours is a long time to most, especially if you work, so you play a few marginals, you draw a little too weak occassionally, etc etc. This, when combined with the badbeats (which you cant prevent) will lead to losses.

The question you need to ask yourself is do you enjoy poker enough to sit there for that length of time for that return? Currently your answer is 'no'. You shouldnt play any more cash tables until you can say 'yes'

I have a hard time with getting emotional. I am going to try the pot odds theory and see if I can break even or better yet make money. I have been doing a quasi version of it where I make money in small increments but I seem to lose it very quickly. Last night i lost 10 bucks (I play 5cent/10cent) to guys who just kept getting better cards than me. I had good cards too. Its hard to not get angry when that happens.

Well i dont know about anyone else but i always have that kind of luck in limit holdem. People know that they are not going to lose as much if they keep fishing. Plus they play a wider range of hands, maybe try no limit holdem. Worked for me.