strange ruling in last nights wsop me

dont know may have seen this last night but this was just another horrible ruling by harrahs at this years wsop. all the cards are out, the young russian player( dont recall his name) takes a stack of about 40(?) 100k chips and shoves them forward, while not releasing them. he thinks for a few seconds, then pulls the full stack back, and puts out roughly half. at this point, the other player in the hand, calls for the floor, and the floor rules that yes he can push forward, and then pull them back as long as he doesnt release, which elicit a comment from a couple players at the table. one even asked, so i can take my whole stack, and shove it in and then pull it back as long as i dont release it? so the other player in the hand calls for the tournament director, who after asking some questions, and thinking it over makes the same ruling! wtf! lets review...scotty can curse, soft play and like an ass, no penalty. helmuth can curse act like an ass, get a penalty and have it overturned on appeal. i have never heard of such a thing as what they ruled last night. forward motion is considered a bet i thought, but apparently not at the wsop. worst part is, the other guy in the hand woulda made another 750k if the ruling had been the other way

A move is not completed until your hand is withdrawn. Same as Chess.

I am fine with it, as long as he never released the chips.

I don't play much in B&M poker rooms so I have had no personal experience with string bets. The "as long as you don't take your hands off" reasoning seemed to rule the situation.

The only thing I found peculiar is that the guy who made the final decision asked how far out the chips were pushed toward the middle of the table. If that makes a difference, the next obvious question is "how far is too far?".

MrMuckets said:

A move is not completed until your hand is withdrawn. Same as Chess.

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That's what I thought.

If there had been a bet line he wudda been forced to bet the original amount.

At the Commerce, Hawaiian Gardens, Hustler...etc, here in So Cal, they wudda made him make the entire bet.


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I think the "hands" rule is fine as long as there was a way for the players to be aware of it before hand. When you play chess, you don't announce that you've check mated your opponent until after theyve released the piece and its your turn, and you shouldn't announce your move in poker until your opponent has finished their "turn"

I don't like it. Forward motion should be considered a bet in most cases. It's just an underhanded way to get information, and crosses the line into cheating in my opinion.

The way I understand it is some poker rooms have tables with a bet line, if chips cross the line it is a bet. If no line the release of chips seems to be of importance.

jamesdadeliverer said:

I don't like it. Forward motion should be considered a bet in most cases. It's just an underhanded way to get information, and crosses the line into cheating in my opinion.

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I feel the same way! In a game that is so much about reads on your opponent I don't think this should be allowed. I live in SW Missouri and we don't have that many casinos very close, so I don't play any B&M. But I do feel that if you make a move towards a bet you should be obligated to finish that move.

I think cantu and michael carroll were making a bigger deal over it than they should have been for the lone fact to get the guy on tilt, if you watched any further in the show it sure worked, i think he ended up all in with 1.5 mil with 9 high

dg1267 said:

I feel the same way! In a game that is so much about reads on your opponent I don't think this should be allowed. I live in SW Missouri and we don't have that many casinos very close, so I don't play any B&M. But I do feel that if you make a move towards a bet you should be obligated to finish that move.

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So if a person is considering what to do and picks up chips to stack and unstack them while thinking is that bet as soon as his hand moves forward even the tiniest bit. Many pro's play with the thier chips while considering thier action. Rules like this a put into place to remove ambiguity not increase it. And shame on the other player if he is giving tells without being sure of what the action is.

i kind of agree with the rule... I`m not sure what is the "official rule" but to me moving chips left right forward without releasing them is not a bet. It's not like he announced it then pushed them didnt release and pulled them back. Once you announce how much then even if you dont let them go is considered a bet... It's funny but it's the same type of tell as if somebody starts making a huge stack next to his stack and then puts the chips back watching what the reaction of the other player is.. so dont give me that bs that now people will be able to get more reaction out of somebody by pushing the chips and pulling them in. If you are a good poker player you should not give out any tells untill other player finishes his betting and the chips end up in the pot. Why do people rush?

Steveg1976 said:

So if a person is considering what to do and picks up chips to stack and unstack them while thinking is that bet as soon as his hand moves forward even the tiniest bit. Many pro's play with the thier chips while considering thier action. Rules like this a put into place to remove ambiguity not increase it. And shame on the other player if he is giving tells without being sure of what the action is.

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I wasn't talking about playing with a stack of chips next to your pile, I'm talking about moving your entire stack outward and then pulling it back. That's hardly "playing" with your chips.

dg1267 said:

I wasn't talking about playing with a stack of chips next to your pile, I'm talking about moving your entire stack outward and then pulling it back. That's hardly "playing" with your chips.

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True, but the OP said nothing about being able to pull the entire stack back either, except in a question( a little far reaching, imo). In the actual sitution it was a handful that was never released. My point was simply that rules like the bet line or release the chips are put into place to remove ambiguity.

I am sitting on the fence as far as the ruling goes, but I do agree that Cantu blew it out of proportion. It appeared to me he had every intention of calling, and I don't see how the bet/ruling/second ruling should have gotten him that upset.
Then again, they were all 30 people from the final table at the main event.

HomeBrewer said:

I am sitting on the fence as far as the ruling goes, but I do agree that Cantu blew it out of proportion. It appeared to me he had every intention of calling, and I don't see how the bet/ruling/second ruling should have gotten him that upset.

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Another half a million duckets? I think I wudda been upset as well.

Of course he was gonna call, he hadda boat. It's the missing duckets that pissed him off.


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The problem with using the "Construed forward motion is a bet" is where do you draw the line? How far forward does someone have to move chips before it is declared a bet? It then becomes a subjective matter, and as such leads to much more controversy.

Say for example, someone moves one of their stacks of chips away from the rest, in order to count them out. If the chips move forward, why would that not be a bet?

All this ridiculousness could easily be avoided if they just used tables with action lines on them

well i thought of another thing...the chips he had were the 100k chips....he had such a big stack of smaller denomanations behind that stack, it really looked like he was getting some space from the rest of his stack to pick half (1.5 million off the top and bet it. i dont even think he could see the 100k chips without moving them somewhere...this may have been what he was doing the whole time but he doesnt speak english so couldnt even explain himself.

I agree with Micheal Carroll and the guy who was screwed..for years I've heard forward motion..and it's not like this guy just set his chips in front of his cards they were a good 18 inches onto the felt.

Also stated there when Micheal Carroll said that he could take his entire stack push it out..then pull it back and throw out one chip..they said...no, you cannot do that....WTF??

Also as far as the guy being on tilt....I'm not sure..you remember the guy made a 1.5 million chip bet with something like 83 or 93....the guy who called him said that he'd been pushing me around all day..finally he made the stand. I don't think the russian was on tilt, I think he was just uber aggressive.

dsvw56 said:

The problem with using the "Construed forward motion is a bet" is where do you draw the line? How far forward does someone have to move chips before it is declared a bet? It then becomes a subjective matter, and as such leads to much more controversy.

Say for example, someone moves one of their stacks of chips away from the rest, in order to count them out. If the chips move forward, why would that not be a bet?

All this ridiculousness could easily be avoided if they just used tables with action lines on them

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That is exactly why I agree with your last comment, if there is an action (or bet) line, there is no question. You cross the line, you are committed. It really doesn't take much to paint a white line on the table

Of course he was upset and he was right to be ..i mean they are playing their lifes over there, those 500k chips does matter to him. It will help him grind those couple spots i guess. I do like the line idea tho, if you cross it your commited.

Yea, he never let go of his chips and didnt shove them out there very far. The other guy just threw a fit because he knew he had him beat and wanted the other chips. He actually was betting a lil over a million and only ended up betting around 500k. I think the ruling was correct tho.

Steveg1976 said:

So if a person is considering what to do and picks up chips to stack and unstack them while thinking is that bet as soon as his hand moves forward even the tiniest bit. Many pro's play with the thier chips while considering thier action. Rules like this a put into place to remove ambiguity not increase it. And shame on the other player if he is giving tells without being sure of what the action is.

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I was in a ring game once in a casino, I was moving my chips around deciding how much to bet. I moved a stack forward less then 6 inches from the edge of the table, then reached for another stack. Immediately, the dealer told me I could not bet more, I had to bet the stack I already moved forward 6 inches. There WAS an action line, and it was probably 18 inches from the edge of the table. Apperently that didn't matter, the "release" mattered.

ra64 said:

I was in a ring game once in a casino, I was moving my chips around deciding how much to bet. I moved a stack forward less then 6 inches from the edge of the table, then reached for another stack. Immediately, the dealer told me I could not bet more, I had to bet the stack I already moved forward 6 inches. There WAS an action line, and it was probably 18 inches from the edge of the table. Apperently that didn't matter, the "release" mattered.

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No, that dealer was either retarded, or that casino has stupid rules. The action line is there for that exact reason, chips or cards have to cross that line to define an action, unless a verbal action is given.