Spouse spends too much on becoming pro

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Sandra87

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My husband and I have been married for some years, and we've had arguments over money during that time. Many of those arguments were due to us trying to mesh our different financial styles together, which I'm not concerned about. Starting out is often difficult.
What I am concerned about is how much money he spends trying to become a professional poker player. He's become a very good player in the past few years, but he does not make us extra money from it (although for some reason he thinks so), and it upsets him that I want to hold him back from his dream because he'd never do that to me. Our savings has been drained, our savings account is treated like an alternate checking, our stock account is dwindled, we have barely any retirement savings, and we've had pay periods where we overdraft because of his actions. He doesn't see it as his fault, somehow, but we've had discussions about it several times and I'm getting really tired of being the only financially responsible one. I've analyzed to see if I'm really the problem, but I can't find any reason. Taking out hundreds (sometimes 1k+) every week or pay period just isn't in the budget. We could spare a certain amount (an equal amount to what I take for myself each pay period, or a little more), but he won't do it.
I pay the bills, I let him know what hasn't shown as taken from our account yet, and tell him when I have to make a big purchase (or we both know when we need to make one together). He will not budget, he doesn't keep track of his cash flow (though I have, and I showed how much he cost us and we fought), and says he'd like to be able to say that I always supported him once he does make it big (I realize this is manipulation).
I don't know what to do. I told him before our last overdraft problem that I never wanted to have to take money from our savings again to cover food and other bills, we should never have that problem with what we make.. yet it still happened. He thinks because we haven't gone into debt we're fine.
I make less than he does, but I don't think that should mean he gets to do whatever he wants when he wants because we have a life together that needs to be considered, but he says he didn't get married so that someone else could tell him what to do with his money.
 
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Well, he's probably got a bit of an issue with the gambling (aka most exciting) aspect of the game. He's probably off his game, trying to win more than make correct decisions.

If I were him, I'd take a break for a few weeks. Maybe do some studying during that to curb the desire/get better. Set a bankroll to play with, and never buy into a game for more than 15% of it. If he is a generally winning player it will pan out for the good... if he gambles and risks money that he shouldn't...that's not a good sign. Best of luck.
 
jaymfc

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sounds like an addiction. he needs help. no matter what your opinion should matter and the family and bills should come first.
he definitely needs a budget and has to learn bankroll management.

I do not understand why you think he is a very good player, if that was true he would not be playing over his head with money he can't afford to lose.
everyone has losing streaks and some last a while but this does not sound like the case.
his refusal to compromise seems to indicate an addiction. he needs help before he takes you both down.

you need to open a separate account that he does not have access to but still pays his share into for the bills and expenses.
he needs to at least agree to talk to someone, I'm not sure who could help that he would listen too. a poker pro or life coach or someone like that.
I feel for him, many of us are the same with the dream to become pros.

I'm just a poker bum but I can tell you this is serious and together you need to resolve it by making sure your finances are straight first.
his dream of being a pro is already true and happening and you are supporting him but he needs a better plan.

don't listen to me I'm just rambling my opinion on your post. but you do need the advice of some kind of pro poker mind coach or something
along those lines as soon as you can, best of luck to both of you :D
 
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It sounds to me like you've voiced your concerns and he isn't listening which is quite sad and selfish - whether he's addicted or not. It certainly seems like he has an issue. I'm all for someone chasing their dream but when it affects someone else's life(your's), that person really needs to question whether or not it's worth it.

Obviously you've given us the poker aspect but what about the rest of your relationship? Does dude play poker all day long or what?
 
Odysseus101

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Hello Sandra, I'm a family law lawyer in canada. This isn't a poker problem, it's a marriage problem. We can discuss it openly on this thread if you like, perhaps others are in the same situation and are watching the thread. Or if you want to chat privately send me a note through the CC site. I see that you're new to CardsChat, if you go to your account profile you should see how to send me a private message if you prefer.
 
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It sounds to me like you've voiced your concerns and he isn't listening which is quite sad and selfish - whether he's addicted or not. It certainly seems like he has an issue. I'm all for someone chasing their dream but when it affects someone else's life(your's), that person really needs to question whether or not it's worth it.

Obviously you've given us the poker aspect but what about the rest of your relationship? Does dude play poker all day long or what?

The rest of our relationship has been pretty good, we have tons of fun together and for the most part we figure out ways to fix things we disagree on. Although, we disagree on whether or not having friends of opposite gender is acceptable as married adults, and he doesn't care how it makes me feel because he would never cheat and it hurts him that I'd be worried about that. I think it's rude to me, as his wife, that he would text a female from school about non-school things. We're not in high school, which is how I view that type of relationship. I'm trying to see that kind of thing in a more healthy way though, because I understand most people don't think this way and I certainly don't want to be controlling. He did stop responding to her so much when we fought about it because it hurt me so badly.
He doesn't play poker all day, and he just recently finally got tired of losing a certain type of poker that he's been playing the last couple years (it's not no limit, 200-100 something?), but he's going to continue playing tournaments (small and big). I'm just so tired of his not caring about how it makes me feel, I'm not trying to control his life I just don't want him to ruin ours and to consider what I propose because I am excellent with finances.
 
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Well, he's probably got a bit of an issue with the gambling (aka most exciting) aspect of the game. He's probably off his game, trying to win more than make correct decisions.

If I were him, I'd take a break for a few weeks. Maybe do some studying during that to curb the desire/get better. Set a bankroll to play with, and never buy into a game for more than 15% of it. If he is a generally winning player it will pan out for the good... if he gambles and risks money that he shouldn't...that's not a good sign. Best of luck.

He doesn't generally win, though. It took 6 months break even on about 18k because he finally won a bigger tournament.
 
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Hello Sandra, I'm a family law lawyer in Canada. This isn't a poker problem, it's a marriage problem. We can discuss it openly on this thread if you like, perhaps others are in the same situation and are watching the thread. Or if you want to chat privately send me a note through the CC site. I see that you're new to CardsChat, if you go to your account profile you should see how to send me a private message if you prefer.

Go on, tell me what you think?
 
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It sounds to me like you've voiced your concerns and he isn't listening which is quite sad and selfish - whether he's addicted or not. It certainly seems like he has an issue. I'm all for someone chasing their dream but when it affects someone else's life(your's), that person really needs to question whether or not it's worth it.

Obviously you've given us the poker aspect but what about the rest of your relationship? Does dude play poker all day long or what?

The rest of our relationship has been pretty good, we have tons of fun together and for the most part we figure out ways to fix things we disagree on. Although, we disagree on whether or not having friends of opposite gender is acceptable as married adults, and he doesn't care how it makes me feel because he would never cheat and it hurts him that I'd be worried about that. I think it's rude to me, as his wife, that he would text a female from school about non-school things. We're not in high school, which is how I view that type of relationship. I'm trying to see that kind of thing in a more healthy way though, because I understand most people don't think this way and I certainly don't want to be controlling. He did stop responding to her so much when we fought about it because it hurt me so badly.
He doesn't play poker all day, and he just recently finally got tired of losing a certain type of poker that he's been playing the last couple years (it's not no limit, 200-100 something?), but he's going to continue playing tournaments (small and big). I'm just so tired of his not caring about how it makes me feel, I'm not trying to control his life I just don't want him to ruin ours and to consider what I propose because I am excellent with finances.
 
Odysseus101

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So, he's consistently lost but won a single big tournament? That's bad news for his poker play. He'll keep chasing another big win which might never come. So other than that one result, he's consistently losing. I assume that he doesn't look at it that way, and thinks he's a better player than he really is. I mean, talking poker-wise here if he's consistently making money, even small amounts, then no harm done. Most of us spend money on our hobbies, but if he's making money or even breaking even then that would be just fine. But this sounds very bad. Is that a fair comment?
 
Ezekiel162

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For the first time on the forum i'm really at a loss for words...:( I really empathize with/for U... I never knew poker could actually get to this point therefore I will not comment on things I have no clue about... I'm really posting just to wish U the best and hope things eventually take a turn for the better... Cardschat really is a good poker community and I am confident that as you converse with more knowledgeable forum members who may have experienced this kind of situation that someone will steer you in the right direction... (keep in mind if the topic(s) gets too personal that as Odysseus101 suggested you may want to use pm in some cases... mainly so you keep some sort confidentiality... just a humble suggestion...:eek:)

Respectfully...
 
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So, he's consistently lost but won a single big tournament? That's bad news for his poker play. He'll keep chasing another big win which might never come. So other than that one result, he's consistently losing. I assume that he doesn't look at it that way, and thinks he's a better player than he really is. I mean, talking poker-wise here if he's consistently making money, even small amounts, then no harm done. Most of us spend money on our hobbies, but if he's making money or even breaking even then that would be just fine. But this sounds very bad. Is that a fair comment?

His wins and losses are inconsistent. Sometimes he may win just a bit, sometimes several hundred, maybe a thousand - but when I track our account activity, over time the yield is not positive. He thinks he makes extra money for us, yet I've shown him that he doesn't.
 
ger008t

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So, he's consistently lost but won a single big tournament? That's bad news for his poker play. He'll keep chasing another big win which might never come. So other than that one result, he's consistently losing. I assume that he doesn't look at it that way, and thinks he's a better player than he really is. I mean, talking poker-wise here if he's consistently making money, even small amounts, then no harm done. Most of us spend money on our hobbies, but if he's making money or even breaking even then that would be just fine. But this sounds very bad. Is that a fair comment?

Very Fair Comment. My saying and I have the money to deposit /..until I make four figures a week from freebuy ..or staking , no thank you. Your Spouse should be proud that you share a common interest , bad for the selfishness which is generally a gamblers problem..which opens another field completely >>blessings come from the sharing and caring part of any relationship>> Trust is earned my friend
 
pescaofish

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Hi Sandra, thanks for sharing your husband addiction. by just sharing it with us it will help you feel a little better.
From my experience from Poker and slots machines, I can tell you that it is very easy to get addicted.
sometimes you think you master the game and hit a nice win, but then comes a long and lasting period of losses, makes you realize, Poker should only be an Entertainment investment.
I hope somehow you can show him the Trends and net losses so that he comes to understand. :)
 
Debi

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I hate to say this - but you have a huge problem on your hands.

If he has not been financially responsible up to this point you could be in for a lifetime of that.

Like many poker players he "thinks" he is a winning player because that is the only way he can justify continuing to play. He has no bankroll management skills whatsoever - seems to think all of the money you guys have is available for him to use.

All of the other good things in your relationship will get you by for now - but if your marriage survives you will not be financially prepared for your later years in life. It is hard to make young people (and I assume you guys are young) to think outside of the present tense when it comes to finances.

He should be allowed to play poker because he obviously loves it. However - the 2 of you should establish and agree on a monthly bankroll and he should stick to that 100%. It should leave you enough money to pay all of your bills, your living expenses and to put money away into savings - which is not touched for poker.

My husband and I have separate bank accounts - even though all of them are joint with both of our names on it. He makes more money than I do so pays more bills than I do. The way we decide who pays what - we fix it so that we have the exact same amount of discretionary income leftover each month - that is after we each pay extra on the mortgage and maintain our savings account.

What we do with our discretionary income is totally up to us - I spend some of mine on poker and he spends some of his on golf.

We have had exactly 1 argument about money in almost 16 years. (and that was about a HUGE sum of money)

I know of no other couple who does what we do - and all of them have arguments about money on a regular basis.
 
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I hate to say this - but you have a huge problem on your hands.

If he has not been financially responsible up to this point you could be in for a lifetime of that.

Like many poker players he "thinks" he is a winning player because that is the only way he can justify continuing to play. He has no bankroll management skills whatsoever - seems to think all of the money you guys have is available for him to use.

All of the other good things in your relationship will get you by for now - but if your marriage survives you will not be financially prepared for your later years in life. It is hard to make young people (and I assume you guys are young) to think outside of the present tense when it comes to finances.

He should be allowed to play poker because he obviously loves it. However - the 2 of you should establish and agree on a monthly bankroll and he should stick to that 100%. It should leave you enough money to pay all of your bills, your living expenses and to put money away into savings - which is not touched for poker.

My husband and I have separate bank accounts - even though all of them are joint with both of our names on it. He makes more money than I do so pays more bills than I do. The way we decide who pays what - we fix it so that we have the exact same amount of discretionary income leftover each month - that is after we each pay extra on the mortgage and maintain our savings account.

What we do with our discretionary income is totally up to us - I spend some of mine on poker and he spends some of his on golf.

We have had exactly 1 argument about money in almost 16 years. (and that was about a HUGE sum of money)

I know of no other couple who does what we do - and all of them have arguments about money on a regular basis.

Did you start out with separate accounts, or did you make that decision later?
 
Odysseus101

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His wins and losses are inconsistent. Sometimes he may win just a bit, sometimes several hundred, maybe a thousand - but when I track our account activity, over time the yield is not positive. He thinks he makes extra money for us, yet I've shown him that he doesn't.

OK, Sandra. I'll tell you what I think here in general terms. I don't know what country you're from, and I'm not trying to get personal I've dealt with this issue more than once professionally. This will be long so bear with me, reread it and think about it, and let me know if you have a comment.

Firstly, being right about an issue is separate from how you feel about an issue. You mentioned your husband being in (presumably innocent) contact with that other woman. Were you right about that issue? No. But how you felt about it, very strongly, is a separate issue. Instead of arguing about whether who is right, your husband should have simply agreed that it's a minor thing and that your feelings are more important, and cut off that contact. Yes, he was right but that doesn't matter especially when it's about something minor. Your feelings are more important. That little incident tells me a lot about your relationship. You likely argue about who is right when that doesn't really matter in many many things.

You fight about his poker playing. In this issue, you're right and he's wrong. And you feel strongly about it. But he's turning it into an argument about who's right and ignoring your feelings about it. This dichotomy of right vs feeling is the source of a lot of conflict in a marriage, in many different things large and small (such as whether he's blowing the savings on poker or just chatting with an old acquaintance online who happens to be a woman). This is a fundamental problem in many marriages, and I strongly recommend that you two consider marriage counselling for that issue.

Another interesting point is that he says it's his money he's spending. He's wrong. A marriage is an equal partnership, especially economically. Yes, maybe you together agree that you can each have a certain amount of money from the family budget in your own personal account each month to do your own thing as our lovely and wise admin Dakota above described. But that's still budgetting. All of the money you two earn as a couple is family money. He's not spending his agreed upon share of that money doing his own thing, he's dipping right into the larger family pot. He's wrong and that's not fair. So it's time to confront your feelings about this. Are you ready to put your marriage on the line over this issue? I'm not saying you should or shouldn't, but I wouldn't blame you if you did. Think about that.

So, here's what I recommend. It's time for an intervention, even if it's just you. Tell him that whether he's right or wrong about how much he's losing (and you can prove he's wrong), that's less important than how you feel. Because how you feel will end the marriage, whereas his correctness of being up or down won't.

Give him an ultimatum; either he gives up poker or you're leaving, because he's blowing your nest egg on his addiction. And don't get into an argument about who is right, this is about how you feel. Separate issue. And if he won't quit poker, then you know he's either an addict or he cares about poker more than you, and you should get out of that marriage.

That's pretty severe, I admit. If you don't want to take that step, then scale it back a bit. Say to him: "You say you're not an addict? Prove it by quitting poker entirely for two whole weeks." and see what he says. Make it a challenge. Of course he'll say he can quit any time. Tell him, back to the theme, that this isn't about proving him right or wrong but it's rather about how you feel. If he won't do it, or says he will but doesn't quit, then he's an addict (or at least a liar and doesn't care about your feelings as much as he does about being right) and you have decide what to do next.

If he says he'll quit for two weeks and does so, heap praise upon him and be thankful that he's acknowledged how you felt as being more important about whether he was right. Then get him a couple of books about basic poker, especially bankroll management(!!) and tell him that you're okay with him playing once he's demonstrated that he can turn a profit after doing some more studying of the game. He should start with freerolls and earn free tickets to qualifying events and play those, before he even starts thinking about spending any money on any cash tables. Reinforce that this isn't "his" money he's playing with. It's "family money" and you have as much say about how it's spent as he does. If he wants to change how you feel about the issue, then he has to demonstrate that you have no reason to be concerned by either turning a profit, or at least breaking even or not losing more a reasonable person would normally spend on a cheap hobby.

If you need to make a point, tell him you've talked to a lawyer about it. I've brought applications for divorce on this issue, and claimed unequal division of the family property on the basis that the other party blew a chunk of the family's wealth on gambling or drinking or drugs or whatever, and that those financial losses ought to come solely out of that spouse's share of the divided assets. That's a legitimate argument. He could be facing your lawyer who says that he's already gambled away his share of the family property upon separation so that you yourself are entitled to the rest.

You say that you're watching the finances closely, so keep track of what money he's putting from where into which poker sites, and challenge him to show you based on his hand and winnings history (most sites will provide this on request) whether he's gained or lost money in the past 30 or 90 days or whatever. Gambling addicts minimize their losses in their minds. He won't believe you when you tell him he's losing, he needs to gather that information himself and see it for himself. And if he won't even get those figures and look at them, then he's in denial about his addiction for sure.

Does that make sense? I don't want to know if there are children involved or other complicating factors; there always are. I just wanted to focus on this issue, and to tell you that I think that this poker business is a symptom of a fundamental problem with your spousal relationship.
 
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Debi

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Did you start out with separate accounts, or did you make that decision later?

We did this from the start.

Another interesting point is that he says it's his money he's spending. He's wrong. A marriage is an equal partnership, especially economically.

Agree completely. We have separate accounts which are jointly owned - and at the end of the day all of our money is OUR money. Any large expenditure is agreed on mutually - and we either split the cost or take it from our joint savings - yep the savings is joint not separate.
 
Odysseus101

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Just an addendum, Sandra. I wanted to mention this above, but what I wrote was already too long. But this is worth say.

Your jealousy isn't something you should feel guilty about. If my spouse had a one night stand with someone, I'd be upset. But maybe they were drunk and lonely or something, and if there was no prior relationship with that other person or since, what sort of betrayal is that? Yes, it's a terrible mistake but after getting an STD check I'd likely forgive my spouse with a warning. A true betrayal is putting someone else above your spouse; having an intimate (not even sexual necessarily) relationship with someone outside of the marriage to the exclusion of a spouse. That's a betrayal.

So it's okay to feel jealous when your husband is chatting to other women online, even if there's nothing going on sexually. Just don't overreact.

And what's going on here is also a betrayal. Your husband has a mistress and her name is poker: she takes your husband's attention, passion, goals, time and money away from the family and she has put you in second place when you should be first. That's a betrayal. So you're not wrong to feel how you do. Maybe if you explain it to him in this way he'll get the message.
 
Poker Orifice

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I never knew poker could actually get to this point


I'm really posting just to wish U the best and hope things eventually take a turn for the better...


It can get far beyond this point.... to complete ruin, jail, institutions & DEATH (by suicide or other). This is not unusual at all.

People play poker for different reasons.... for some its a social gathering/get-together, for others its a mental game of in-depth strategy, for others it's some weekly or monthly entertainment, for others it's a career & for some others it is an uncontrollable addiction to gambling!! If you have the propensity for addiction, there's a good change it will get you ('it' being 'poker'... but it could actually be the 'learning of the game' they're wired to... or "the MONEY".

Lots of great comments/suggestions in this thread already. Something I'd like to add (based a bit off of what dakota was saying.. when she mentioned >>> "If he has not been financially responsible up to this point you could be in for a lifetime of that. " you could also be in for a long haul before your partner is willing to accept that they even have a problem (if that ever happens). Most won't curb their actions... instead they'll take it to the bitter end and most often this is exactly what it will take before they're ready to do what it takes to change. I don't know what would make this happen (it could be the thought of you leaving them.... or just the idea of this being a possiblity.... I have no clue).
I also know that you can't change them.... you can only change yourself and how you let it affect you & how you choose to deal with it... how you react to it, how you let it control you (or not). It is very easy to get addicted to the addict, thinking that 'you'll be okay if they just did this (... or 'that')... 'if only', etc. etc. I would think you need to find some ways in which you can make it work for yourself & draw yourself a bottom line (ie. separate money setup similar to what dakota was suggesting (I thought that was a great idea just for any (or most) relationships). I think though if your partner is actually addicted to gambling (which it seems like from what you've mentioned so far), this probably won't work for long (... other things will happend... money will go missing... unexpected bills will pop up, etc. etc.).

Good luck.
 
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This is not poker, this is gambling. I had such an addiction before. It was black jack, roulette and so on. I thought I can live of it until I started losing hard. Ask him to start reading articles and books and once he feels ready ask him to start playing with a very small amount of money for example 20 dollars. If he refuses ask him to see a doctor. If he refuses this you need a divorce. If his so called dream is more important than you he doesn't deserve you.
 
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There has been a lot of suggestion regarding having him read books, learn strategy, etc.
He does this everyday. He's done this for a couple years now. He watches many players' vlogs, has read books, and plays online too and streams some of his games. He's played with some big names and discussed strategy. He's not green, he's just not a moneymaker either.
 
Debi

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You can be a good poker player and still not make a profit.

The important thing is to manage a proper bankroll that allows you to deal with long downswings.
 
MediaBLITZ

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If he's wanting to be a poker pro he'd better start acting like it by administrating bankroll management. That is plain and simple, you play within your means and have a separate account/cookie jar for poker and its expenses. This is part of being a pro. You work your way up. If this means only playing $50 tournaments to start, or $1/$2 cash games - that is what you do. When you have proven that you can win by, by building your poker bankroll, you can move up in stakes.
Another thing pros do is chart their expenses and income so there is a valid and accurate method of proving their winnings.
Sometimes you go on a downswing and have to move back down in stakes and start the climb all over again (grinding).

IF he does not agree to this methodology then he is not a professional and never will be - hes just a guy who plays cards and takes money from his family to do so. If that continues then you must be prepared to present an ultimatum - either get serious about being a pro by treating it like a business (with a separate account and spreadsheet), or you cannot continue on this journey with him. He is putting you in survival mode.

There is a book by Dusty Schmidt called Treat Your Poker Like a Business. Nothing great - just common sense - but it seems common sense is what hubby is lacking right now. When you talk with him about this (intervention time?) be sure to stress this is NOT about playing poker, it is about how its being financed - incorrectly and unprofessionally.

Wish you well -
 
Pokerguy6666

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Hi, I may have a partial solution. If you want to know if your husband is losing or winning at poker, you just need to go to the site "sharkscope" (at http://www.sharkscope.com) and enter is poker name and you will see if he is a winner or loser. It's like a background check for poker players and its free to use.
 
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