Can somebody please explain...

Paw_kit Aces

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I read this really long thread from twoplustwo poker forum. The OP apparently banned from FT for using software the FT prohibits. The OP is defending himself claiming he is innocent and that he only uses PT3. The guy says he is a "shortstacker" and says he has taken a lot of flack from other players at the tables he is playing on. There are several replies from other posters who obviously disapprove of "shortstackers" and one of them says he is glad he was banned.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...d-ft-without-evidence-full-disclosure-372206/

I've been playing online poker and reading online forums such as this for a couple of years now and never heard this term except when it refers to being short stacked.

My question is what is short stacking and what is the big deal? Also what is ratholing?
 
nevadanick

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I read this really long thread from twoplustwo poker forum. The OP apparently banned from FT for using software the FT prohibits. The OP is defending himself claiming he is innocent and that he only uses PT3. The guy says he is a "shortstacker" and says he has taken a lot of flack from other players at the tables he is playing on. There are several replies from other posters who obviously disapprove of "shortstackers" and one of them says he is glad he was banned.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...d-ft-without-evidence-full-disclosure-372206/

I've been playing online poker and reading online forums such as this for a couple of years now and never heard this term except when it refers to being short stacked.

My question is what is short stacking and what is the big deal? Also what is ratholing?

Ratholing is:
Ratholing means to leave a game and then come back into the game with a smaller stack then with which you left. For example, suppose you buy into a game for $20. You go on a winning streak and increase your stack to $100. Now, you feel uncomfortable playing with this much money, so you leave the game, pocket $80, and re-enter the game with only $20. This would be a case of ratholing. Ratholing is poor poker etiquette, and most poker rooms prohibit it.

quoted from the wsop Academy glossary
 
nevadanick

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I would 'guess' that his reference to 'shortstacking' would be to keep leaving, returning with a 'shorter stack' (as a result of his ratholing) and going all-in, all-in, all-in as a 'short stack' with less risk.

Don't know if it's the same on FT as Stars, but PT3 has been prohibited as a 'running' program when the poker site client is open.
 
RogueRivered

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Short-stack strategy is to buy-in for the minimum, say 20BBs, wait for great cards, and try to get all your money in pre-flop or before the turn if you have top-pair, j or better kicker, or great draw. Part of the strategy is to get up and leave the table if you get up to 30BBs. I'm sure that wouldn't be popular in live games, but online, why not?
 
WVHillbilly

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I would 'guess' that his reference to 'shortstacking' would be to keep leaving, returning with a 'shorter stack' (as a result of his ratholing) and going all-in, all-in, all-in as a 'short stack' with less risk.

Don't know if it's the same on FT as Stars, but PT3 has been prohibited as a 'running' program when the poker site client is open.

That is WRONG. PT3 and HEM are legal on both Stars and Tilt.

As to the OP, I followed that thread as it unfolded and in the end it wasn't short-stacking or anything else that the poster was banned for (he was allowed to cash out). He was apparently using some other software (possibly SnG Wizard) while FTP was running and he had multiple accounts.
 
nevadanick

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That is WRONG. PT3 and HEM are legal on both Stars and Tilt.

Then I stand corrected. last I looked, PT3 was on their prohibited list while Stars was running but didn't keep up with the threads on that since I don't use it anyway.

Edit -- my bad. Sharpscope was the program I was thinking of when I wrote about PT3. Too late tonight - going brain dead - lol.
 
Makwa

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PT3 is legal.
Short stacking is buying in short with a couple of advantages (at least): You can use short stack fear (all in) to instill fear in the big stack boys, your teensy stack is then an advantage. Another reason (there are more) is that u can play LAG with little fear, as you spread little risks around. Scares the pee out of some peeps. As for ratholing, does not work in short term as you have to return to table with what you left. But as a lifetime hit and run drive by shoot em up strategy, shortstack can be very effective.:deal:
 
WEC

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Just to add

Ratholing/Shortstacking is not only frowned upon by NL Cash players in both live and online games, but it generally is considered a long term losing strategy as well.

People who Rathole or Shortstack always leave the table with a minimum profit

The reason it can be quite unprofitable, is the same guys who are leaving the game with miniscule profits, will hang in with several rebuys to end up sessions either with small profits or large losses.

The reason people get mad at these guys is they are trying to take advantage of players by pocketing money and put it out of risk, while trying to take more money from the same players who can now not get all of their lost money back.
 
RogueRivered

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The reason it can be quite unprofitable, is the same guys who are leaving the game with miniscule profits, will hang in with several rebuys to end up sessions either with small profits or large losses.

I'm not sure I get what you are saying here.

I've read that the short stack strategy is good for beginners since it shortens the betting rounds, therefore taking away post-flop skill advantages of the large stacks. It also puts large stacks in uncomfortable positions in relationship to other large stacks when they are considering calling all-in from the short stack. Ed Miller's book Getting Started in Hold 'Em covers the short stack strategy and he thinks it's almost a guaranteed winner if followed perfectly.

Online it is very easy to change tables and bring in the minimum again, rather than risking any gains by continuing to play on the same table (with people out to get you!)
 
hipshot55

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Ratholing is:
Ratholing means to leave a game and then come back into the game with a smaller stack then with which you left. For example, suppose you buy into a game for $20. You go on a winning streak and increase your stack to $100. Now, you feel uncomfortable playing with this much money, so you leave the game, pocket $80, and re-enter the game with only $20. This would be a case of ratholing. Ratholing is poor poker etiquette, and most poker rooms prohibit it.

quoted from the WSOP Academy glossary

I'm kinda struggling with this, so maybe you can help me out here.

I've been working on my own version of "the Ferguson" and have made some progress. His "rules of bankroll management" which I have been attempting to follow, are, and I quote:

"To ensure that I keep my bankroll intact, I've adopted some key rules:
  • I'll never buy into a cash game or a Sit & Go with more than 5 percent of my total bankroll (there is an exception for the lowest limits: I'm allowed to buy into any game with a buy-in of $2.50 or less).
  • I won't buy into a multi-table tournament for more than 2 percent of my total bankroll and I'm allowed to buy into any multi-table tournament that costs $1.
  • If at any time during a No-Limit or Pot-Limit cash-game session the money on the table represents more than 10 percent of my total bankroll, I must leave the game when the blinds reach me. "
So, assuming a $100 bankroll, I get $5.00 to buy into a cash game, which pretty much limits me to $.02/$.04 ( or lower) tables. I buy in for the max, which is $4.00 or 100bb. I play and do well enough that I accumulate the magic $10.00, which is my trigger to leave the table as soon as the blinds reach me, with my $6.00 profit. So far, so good.

If I then move to another table and buy in there for the original $4.00 and start the process all over again, haven't I just precisely fulfilled the definition of "ratholing"?
 
RogueRivered

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I've been trying to follow Ferguson's guidelines, too. I never understood the last item about 10% being on the table and having to leave. Now I get it. I thought it was all the money on the table, from all the players, but that didn't make any sense. He's only talking about his money. Wow, I can't believe I didn't get that for so long. Thanks for pointing this out.

It's a perfectly reasonable strategy. The reason people don't like it, especially more experienced big stacks, is that they want to win your money. You are making it harder for them to do that. Therefore, if they can shame you into sticking around and giving them a chance to separate you from your winnings, that's what they'll try to do. The reason there is a max buy-in is because the best players would win all the money faster if stacks were unlimited, thereby shortening the game and causing the cardrooms to lose money in the form of rake. The cardrooms want to prolong the action as long as possible, taking their cut every step of the way. It's always about the money, isn't it?
 
Paw_kit Aces

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Thanks for the information, I guess I can see how people would resent a player like that.

As to the OP, I followed that thread as it unfolded and in the end it wasn't short-stacking or anything else that the poster was banned for (he was allowed to cash out). He was apparently using some other software (possibly SnG Wizard) while FTP was running and he had multiple accounts.

I read most of if, but missed that part about him playing with SnG wizzard, that explains it. I couldn't figure out why they would ban him without explaining what software he was using.

Wonder how he was able to use sng wizzard while running FT. I tried sometime back, but couldn't get it to work, because it won't run if you have PS open. That is when I found out it was a banned software so I deleted it. Didn't want to loose my roll and it was worthless without the data base.
 
hipshot55

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I've been trying to follow Ferguson's guidelines, too. I never understood the last item about 10% being on the table and having to leave. Now I get it. I thought it was all the money on the table, from all the players, but that didn't make any sense. He's only talking about his money. Wow, I can't believe I didn't get that for so long. Thanks for pointing this out.

You're welcome. :D

It's a perfectly reasonable strategy. The reason people don't like it, especially more experienced big stacks, is that they want to win your money. You are making it harder for them to do that. Therefore, if they can shame you into sticking around and giving them a chance to separate you from your winnings, that's what they'll try to do. The reason there is a max buy-in is because the best players would win all the money faster if stacks were unlimited, thereby shortening the game and causing the cardrooms to lose money in the form of rake. The cardrooms want to prolong the action as long as possible, taking their cut every step of the way. It's always about the money, isn't it?

Always. And as far as I am concerned, they can go screw themselves. It's MY money. I won it fair and square.:)
 
T

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If I then move to another table and buy in there for the original $4.00 and start the process all over again, haven't I just precisely fulfilled the definition of "ratholing"?

It's only considered ratholing if you join the same table again. I know a lot of sites, if not most, require you to bring in the same amount you left with when you rejoin a cash game table, which would prevent you from ratholing. You usually have to wait a certain number of minutes (like 30 or so) before you can come back and bring in however much you want.

But if you do win some money playing short stack, leave, and then join another table with a short stack, I don't really see anything wrong with that because they are (usually) new players that you haven't played with before that session.
 
BillyTheBull

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I usually buy in for 100BB (the max at many rooms, although not all), and I personally don't feel very comfortable buying in for anything less than 50BB, because it limits my poker game to only a few moves, rather than having a full "tool belt" at my disposal. Anytime you buy in for the minimum, you severely limit your options, and that just doesn't seem smart to me; I do, however, see the logic behind this "strategy" of "short-stacking" and how it might appeal to a weak player who's afraid of making "tough decisions" on the later betting streets. Obviously, it's comparatively much easier to just look at your own two cards and simply decide to shove or fold, rather than actually trying to read your opponents' hands, betting patterns, and other intricacies that develop on the later streets. But, at least to me, those are exactly the things that make poker such a great game, and infinitely more interesting than any other casino game.

I've been playing on the Cake network quite a bit lately, and it seems I have come across more of these "short-stack, all-in pre-flop donkeys" (as I call them - "SS-AIPF-D" for short) on that site than anywhere else. I definitely like to have position on them, if at all possible, and it's important to note that they're not all the same (e.g. some will push AIPF w/ any pair, while others will wait for AT+, etc.), so I usually try to take notes on their hands when someone calls them, and then adjust my calling range appropriately. Generally, if one of these SS-AIPF-Ds pushes and I get to call them HU, I will gladly get into a coin flip for their $9-10 any day, and I often even find myself way ahead when I call them w/ 77 or AQ (a call that I would not usually make if someone raised $10 w/ still $70 behind); of course, when someone else has open-raised and there is still action behind me, I'll want a premium hand to call, not because of the donk's shove, but because of the originaly raiser, who might decide to re-raise.

IMO, there is just no way that this short-stacking strategy is profitable in the long run, as these guys put themselves in coin-flip situations at least 90% of the time, and usually there's only one caller, so they either lose their stack and re-buy, or double up, but then are still short-stacked compared to the rest of the table and often have no clue what to do with their new-found "riches" and often end up going broke, anyway. Even if they're disciplined enough to immediately leave a table after any double-up, they are bound to lose their stacks just as often as they double them, so it's a break-even strategy, at best. (Ok, rarely they might get lucky and get two callers and actually win the pot, but that's an exception. . . .)

Personally I would get bored of playing like that very, very quickly, as it takes all the interesting skill components out of the game and reduces NLHE to a glorified form of flipping a coin. . . .
 
RogueRivered

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As a tournament player trying to make the transition to ring, I've played around with the SS strategy a little bit. Granted, I'm just testing the waters, using Play Money, and playing as many tables as possible at once. Actually I'm trying to collect as many hands as I can using the strategy and seeing if I can keep up 9 tables at once.

The results so far show that the SS strategy makes it really easy to keep up with 9 tables at once (the limit with Play Money, several more would be easy, too) and as long as you keep to the strategy and don't drift away from it at all, which is tempting, it is profitable.

But I would have to agree with everything BillyTheBull says above. It is a pretty boring way to play poker; it doesn't even feel like poker. And I think that good players who know what you're doing would be able to beat you by using strategies similar to what he mentioned. However, supposedly when you are playing SS strategy, the only ones you need to worry about are other SSers.

All in all, I would say it's a good way for beginners to get used to ring without risking much money, allowing them a good chance of slowly growing their BR while multi-tabling, learning how big stacks play, and if you are using a HUD, seeing what kind of play loses money and what makes money. After you gain some of that basic knowledge, you will probably be ready to make a full buy-in and can use more of your acquired poker skills.
 
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