So...you think that player you looked up on OPR is a DONK cause his ROI in -74%?????

Do you think because a player has a big -ROI he can't play

One big thing to take into account is that both OPR and PokerDB (the major ROI reporting sites for MTTS) really have ZERO idea what your ROI is if you play rebuys (because they assign an average rebuy to your buyins since they can not find your true amount of rebuys).

In case you dont think it makes a big deal...it does, even for a couple MTTs. I will let you do the math yourself. Just play a weeks worth of rebuys, keep track of your actual rebuys and match it to PokerDB figures (or do it for a month and compare it to OPR).

Now on the unscientific front...I was just curious how one of the best players in the world measured up on pokerstars

Daniel Negreanu must be a real donk with a 120 day ROI of -74% and a Full Tracking ROI of -8% :joyman:

I want to to be a DONK like him

The lesson to take away....Use these tools to help in decision making, but in no way believe reported ROI is gospel in online poker

Good player never calls villian DONK. I mean really good player. "Donk", "fish" - this names use only stupid newb, which think he is cool. So why we didn't see them on wsop?

Well, since Daniel is known to rebuy more than the average player his ROI would actually be worse. Unless you never rebuy (or routinely rebuy many times) it should still be relatively close, especially when its mixed with non rebuy results.

D'wilius said:

Well, since Daniel is known to rebuy more than the average player his ROI would actually be worse. Unless you never rebuy (or routinely rebuy many times) it should still be relatively close, especially when its mixed with non rebuy results.

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Just so you know..I have done the math on several people...Not EVEN CLOSE and the deviation goes hog wild when you increase the number of events played

if they dont count how many rebuys u make, ur ROI will be higher

You're right that it can be signifantly off if someone plays mostly rebuys and doesn't rebuy similarly to the rest of the field...but if you always addon and occasionally rebuy, its not going to improve a -74% ROI much.

...of course if you jump around stakes and let's say didn't rebuy at larger buyins it could make a big difference.

Looking at the big $3 rebuy on Stars there are ~3 rebuys or addons for entrants, so if you never rebought or addon a -74% ROI would be about breakeven (if you only played that rebuy)

pantin007 said:

if they dont count how many rebuys u make, ur ROI will be higher

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They take the total entry, rebuy and addon money and divide it by the # players (or atleast they estimate the avg*) so it can be higher or lower depending on your style.

*I think they might have a set # rebuys they estimate from past tournaments, and not recalculate for every day its played.

IIRC, at least in the rebuy games I've played in, the lowest payout level is typically just a at larger than the cost of your buy-in + 1 rebuy + add-on. So in a $3.30 game, the lowest payout would be at least $9.30...I know it would be more, but I've never seen it be less than this.

Edit: Duh. So my point was going to be that the sites are possibly using a buyin+rebuy+addon average for everyone since that's the ballpark of where the lowest payout is at. In non-rebuy games the lowest payout level is typically just a little over the buyin cost, so applying this thinking to rebuys is, on average, perfectly reasonable (though not 100% accurate).

My ROI is way under for several reasons

- rebuys
- chops (this amounts to thousands in differences, fortunately all in my favour)
- I buy in with fpps to the $215s which are way over my BRM and variance has yet to do it's thing and let me win one

But I still think it's a very valuable tool. This includes the ROI but mainly for the distribution of results, volume of tournies played and critically the average buy-in.

MTTs are such a long-term proposition that any small sample is skewed, but show me the distribution of results for someone over 100 mtts and I'll be able to tell a fair amount about their game.

And to respond to the OP, it's good if people think you are a donk and you aren't. It really doesn't matter what they think of you.

D'wilius said:

They take the total entry, rebuy and addon money and divide it by the # players (or atleast they estimate the avg*) so it can be higher or lower depending on your style.

*I think they might have a set # rebuys they estimate from past tournaments, and not recalculate for every day its played.

Click to expand...

ooh, i thought it was like buy in, 1 rebuy, 1 addon

pantin007 said:

ooh, i thought it was like buy in, 1 rebuy, 1 addon

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Maybe it is, since thats pretty normal. They might just use that for all rebuys. I don't know exactly how, just meant that it wasn't calculated using only entry fees.

D'wilius said:

Maybe it is, since thats pretty normal. They might just use that for all rebuys.

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Nope, you were right d'wil it's the total $ at the first break divided by the number of players.

Irexes said:

My ROI is way under for several reasons

- rebuys
- chops (this amounts to thousands in differences, fortunately all in my favour)
- I buy in with fpps to the $215s which are way over my BRM and variance has yet to do it's thing and let me win one

But I still think it's a very valuable tool. This includes the ROI but mainly for the distribution of results, volume of tournies played and critically the average buy-in.

MTTs are such a long-term proposition that any small sample is skewed, but show me the distribution of results for someone over 100 mtts and I'll be able to tell a fair amount about their game.

Click to expand...

Well Rex, I really want to know what you would think of my game considering my ROI , Full Tilt: janovsky.
Esp. while I see you as a very good MTT-player.

Ignoring the <180 people MTTs, cause they are sngs and distort the stats,

Your ITM is decent at 14% and your distribution is good with only 4% buto in the first 10%. Last 10% good as well at 14%. You've got 3 2nds and 1 1st which doesn't tell much except that you only got 2 other top 10 finishes so when you've made the FT you've done well.

Be interesting to see how you do when you move to the $20-30 range more often.

Only downside is the abi (average buy-in) is low at $5.27, but you can only play the people you're up against.

Thnx for the comment Rex.
But I have some questions:
First: With what BR. is it that you can play MTT of $20-30 buyin, and when should you go back to $5-$12 buyin(if you loose too much)?
2nd:Can it be done without a HUD or would you be too much in a disadvantage position against players that use software like PT or HEM?
Just wondering caus I did have a licence for HEM for a short time, but than my PC crashed and didn`t had the licence code anymore to re-install.I didn`t had the time to get familiar with it, so I couldn`t use it properly.
Would you advice to get a new one? (mostly MTT, but some FR cash tables as well).
Feedback is much appreciated.
Btw. I`m just playing poker for little over a year now.
Grtz. Janovsky

janovsky said:

Thnx for the comment Rex.
But I have some questions:
First: With what BR. is it that you can play MTT of $20-30 buyin, and when should you go back to $5-$12 buyin(if you loose too much)?
2nd:Can it be done without a HUD or would you be too much in a disadvantage position against players that use software like PT or HEM?
Just wondering caus I did have a licence for HEM for a short time, but than my PC crashed and didn`t had the licence code anymore to re-install.I didn`t had the time to get familiar with it, so I couldn`t use it properly.
Would you advice to get a new one? (mostly MTT, but some FR cash tables as well).
Feedback is much appreciated.
Grtz. Janovsky

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Very hard to advise on BRM for MTTs as variance is huge and it also depends on field size. The larger the fields the larger the variance as well.

I've had 2k+ downswings playing 22-33s in the past with 500-800 fields, though it could take hundreds of tournies to happen due to mini cashes sustaining you for a while.

I'd suggest 30 buy-ins to be reasonable, but then I've always played knowing I can redeposit a roll if needed so I'm probably more risk-accpepting than if the roll was finite.

As for a HUD you'll see plenty of plenty of people saying they don't have a roll in tournies. Certainly less valuable than in Ring, but they are really handy for confirming reads or for spotting the guy who hasn't played a hand in 200 then suddenly raises utg. Of course people adapt to the blinds and stack sizes which affects things ut it's still of value. There's more to it, but basically it's information and information is never bad.