short blind rules

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roninmac

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Years ago, I saw a tourney where the big blind was short stacked and players coming in for a call, only had to call that amount. Example:

Blinds = 4,000 - 8,000

Player on the Big Blind only had 5,000, so any player calling only had to call 5,000

I've told my friends about this and they say it's completely wrong. Yes or no?

If yes, can you point me to the set of rules which covers this?
 
OzExorcist

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The other players still have to post the amount of the big blind (so 8000 in your example) to enter the pot. Here's the relevant rule from Robert's Rules of Poker (Section 14, No Limit and Pot Limit):

2. The minimum bet size is the amount of the minimum bring-in, unless the player is going all-in. The minimum bring-in is the size of the big blind unless the structure of the game is preset by the house to some other amount (such as double the big blind). The minimum bet remains the same amount on all betting rounds. If the big blind does not have sufficient chips to post the required amount, a player who enters the pot on the initial betting round is still required to enter for at least the minimum bet (unless going all-in for a lesser sum) and a preflop raiser must at least double the size of the big blind. At all other times, when someone goes all-in for less than the minimum bet, a player has the option of just calling the all-in amount. If a player goes all-in for an amount that is less than the minimum bet, a player who wishes to raise must raise at least the amount of the minimum bet. For example, if the minimum bet is $100, and a player goes all-in on the flop for $20, a player may fold, call $20, or raise to at least a total of $120.​
 
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roninmac

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Well, the tournament where I saw this happen was a WPT event in either the first or second season and I was wondering if they still did this, or if this was just a rule used by that particular casino, or if it's use was more widespread.
 
OzExorcist

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Well, the tournament where I saw this happen was a WPT event in either the first or second season and I was wondering if they still did this, or if this was just a rule used by that particular casino, or if it's use was more widespread.

If you can remember the episode number let us know, I'd be happy to have a look (I haven't followed the WPT closely for years, but I've still got the first two seasons on DVD at home).

That said I'd be very surprised if this was allowed to happen at any major casino, especially one hosting a WPT event. It certainly wouldn't be a normal rule. I can think of a couple of possible explanations for what you might have seen though:

- If one player called for 8000 and everyone else (including the small blind) folded, then that player would get the 3000 extra back and they'd just play for the remaining chips against the big blind. It's possible the on-screen graphics just showed "call 5000" because it was simpler, especially if everybody else folded quickly.

- If everyone folds around to the small blind then there's nobody else to act afterwards, and obviously if they want to stay in the hand all they need to do is call the extra 1000, rather than putting in 4000 more and getting 3000 back.
 
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roninmac

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If you can remember the episode number let us know, I'd be happy to have a look (I haven't followed the WPT closely for years, but I've still got the first two seasons on DVD at home).

That said I'd be very surprised if this was allowed to happen at any major casino, especially one hosting a WPT event. It certainly wouldn't be a normal rule. I can think of a couple of possible explanations for what you might have seen though:

- If one player called for 8000 and everyone else (including the small blind) folded, then that player would get the 3000 extra back and they'd just play for the remaining chips against the big blind. It's possible the on-screen graphics just showed "call 5000" because it was simpler, especially if everybody else folded quickly.

- If everyone folds around to the small blind then there's nobody else to act afterwards, and obviously if they want to stay in the hand all they need to do is call the extra 1000, rather than putting in 4000 more and getting 3000 back.
The tournamnet where I saw this, it was down to 3 players. Mike Sexton made a comment that the guy on the button could get in for less than the big blind since that guy could not cover the BB. However, the guy on the button folded and Mike was stunned. He felt he should have called no matter what 2 cards he had. The odds are the small blind wouldn't have a raising hand and they could see the flop and give 2 players a chance to knock out the short stack.
 
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This may help you, if you know how often opp raises
 
OzExorcist

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The tournamnet where I saw this, it was down to 3 players. Mike Sexton made a comment that the guy on the button could get in for less than the big blind since that guy could not cover the BB. However, the guy on the button folded and Mike was stunned. He felt he should have called no matter what 2 cards he had. The odds are the small blind wouldn't have a raising hand and they could see the flop and give 2 players a chance to knock out the short stack.

So the under-call didn't actually happen, it was just something Mike Sexton talked about? I'm thinking he just misspoke in that case. The button would still have to put a full big blind in to call.
 
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roninmac

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So the under-call didn't actually happen, it was just something Mike Sexton talked about? I'm thinking he just misspoke in that case. The button would still have to put a full big blind in to call.
No, he did not misspeak. He made too big a deal about it, coming in for less than the big blind, and Sexton has been around the game far too long to make such a mistake. It may have been just been a rule of that particular casino.

Anyhow, if the point is to entice calls, have more chances to knock out the short stacks, then I think it's a good rule.

I've helped to run tourneys before, and I've had friends ask me to run a weekly game. If I ever do, this will be one of my house rules. I like it.
 
WVHillbilly

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No, he did not misspeak. He made too big a deal about it, coming in for less than the big blind, and Sexton has been around the game far too long to make such a mistake. It may have been just been a rule of that particular casino.

Anyhow, if the point is to entice calls, have more chances to knock out the short stacks, then I think it's a good rule.

I've helped to run tourneys before, and I've had friends ask me to run a weekly game. If I ever do, this will be one of my house rules. I like it.
I'd bet against that being the rule in any casino and if you do implement it, I'd bet, you'll have trouble with it too. BB should stay the same and a side pot should be created if needed. The only time a person should be able to call for just the amount of the BB is if it's folded to the SB. The SB in that case can just call the amount of the BB's stack.
 
OzExorcist

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No, he did not misspeak. He made too big a deal about it, coming in for less than the big blind, and Sexton has been around the game far too long to make such a mistake. It may have been just been a rule of that particular casino.

"Vince, it'll cost him less than one big blind to get the chance to knock a player out" and "He'll have to put in at least one big blind to enter the pot" aren't mutually exclusive statements though. He can say the first (or words to that effect) and the second will still be true.
 
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hffjd2000

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If the players want to enter, they have to call the big blind. Right? The players are first to act before the short stack big blind, so they have to call by putting the bigblind amount and not the BB short stack amount. Then from here, we have now a side pot.
 
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The tournamnet where I saw this, it was down to 3 players. Mike Sexton made a comment that the guy on the button could get in for less than the big blind since that guy could not cover the BB. However, the guy on the button folded and Mike was stunned. He felt he should have called no matter what 2 cards he had. The odds are the small blind wouldn't have a raising hand and they could see the flop and give 2 players a chance to knock out the short stack.

I think you need to go back and get his exact words. Because what he might have meant is that since the BB couldn't cover the bet, the better would get back any uncovered portion of his bet. So it would be as if he only bet what the BB had.
 
Zorba

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Never doubt OZ when it comes to poker rules.
 
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short blinds

Some poker sites do this, I don't know why they won't let a player call the full blind. i guess too equal the amount of the big blind player.
 
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1blanqueanu1

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che interesting question you ask.
But for example to limp (would not recommend hahahaha) if the blinds are 2000-4000 and the big blind has 3000 total chips, you have to put like 4000 not 3000. This as you realize that the big blind ponele 100 points have nothing else, the small blind would put 2000 and the other 100? hahaha of course not.
 
wanderingthehall

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This would only apply if it was the small blind calling the big blind after everyone else folded.
 
HaNz17

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I recommend you read several books on strategy have played in cash and in máx 6 persons, since this opens up a prospect to play more open in any mode. Or view videos on youtube on several teachers explainning how to play and when.

Enviado desde mi C2104 mediante Tapatalk
 
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