Seems the poker rules have changed!!!

I guess the rules of Omaha have changed and no one told anyone. I was playing PLO tournament and a guy flops 2 pair and bets out gets reraised for most of his chips and decides to push cards are flipped over and he ahs top and bottom pair and a straight draw the reraiser has the nut flush draw and a straight draw when the draws don't hit he calls the other guy an idiot. So i simply asked him why he called the guy an idiot and he says cause he went all in with 2 pair and that he had the nut flush draw and a straight draw. I was like ok since when did a draw beat 2 pair, so he told me to go read a book LOL. I told him I understand that the draws are a favorite after the flop however as in any game favorites dont always win. So now I'm the idiot because I dont understand Omaha. I really wish I could copy the chat in here.

Grossberger said:

I guess the rules of Omaha have changed and no one told anyone. I was playing PLO tournament and a guy flops 2 pair and bets out gets reraised for most of his chips and decides to push cards are flipped over and he ahs top and bottom pair and a straight draw the reraiser has the nut flush draw and a straight draw when the draws don't hit he calls the other guy an idiot. So i simply asked him why he called the guy an idiot and he says cause he went all in with 2 pair and that he had the nut flush draw and a straight draw. I was like ok since when did a draw beat 2 pair, so he told me to go read a book LOL. I told him I understand that the draws are a favorite after the flop however as in any game favorites dont always win. So now I'm the idiot because I dont understand Omaha. I really wish I could copy the chat in here.

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Well, calling anyone an idiot is silly imo. After all, if you think the other guy is a bad player, you want to play against him - letting someone else know you think they're bad kinda cracks me up.

On the other hand, there's an interesting point here. In any poker game, you want to get your money in when you're the favorite. If you're not the favorite, you don't want to get money in to the pot unless you think there's a good chance the other guy will fold and/or have the correct pot + implied odds.

In NLHE, the made hand is almost always the favorite and the drawing hand is almost always the dog. This isn't true in Omaha, though - the drawing hand is frequently the favorite.

imo, this isn't an Omaha vs. other type of game issue, it's whether or not you should get your money in as the favorite even if you're on a draw.

I've been playing a lot more of Omaha lately and if there is anything you learn right away is that there really isn't any such thing as a "huge" favorite, unless you already have the absolute nuts, 2nd nuts, etc. - that game completely changes with every card, literally.

The guy must have been inexperienced (although he did technically make the right move, I probably wouldn't in Omaha, I only show with a made hand, and usually pretty close to the nuts - WAY too many ways to get beat in that game), because I see those types of plays all day long in Omaha - nothing new there.

Kasanova King said:

I've been playing a lot more of Omaha lately and if there is anything you learn right away is that there really isn't any such thing as a "huge" favorite, unless you already have the absolute nuts, 2nd nuts, etc. - that game completely changes with every card, literally.

The guy must have been inexperienced (although he did technically make the right move, I probably wouldn't in Omaha, I only show with a made hand, and usually pretty close to the nuts - WAY too many ways to get beat in that game), because I see those types of plays all day long in Omaha - nothing new there.

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The hand isn't posted, it's not clear who had better equity. If they were both drawing to the same straight, then the "you're an idiot" guy had a bare fd as an edge, which isn't an edge at all. The "idiot" guy, though, shoved w a 2pr hand and a sd, if top2 pr and nut sd I can sort of see it, but shoving w 2 pr against a repped top2/set/uberdraw (which is what the raise should have been interpreted as) is iffy imo. We also don't see what the stack sizes are - if "idiot" guy is short enough, both raising and calling the shove, and the shove itself, make sense to me.

slycbnew said:

The hand isn't posted, it's not clear who had better equity. If they were both drawing to the same straight, then the "you're an idiot" guy had a bare fd as an edge, which isn't an edge at all. The "idiot" guy, though, shoved w a 2pr hand and a sd, if top2 pr and nut sd I can sort of see it, but shoving w 2 pr against a repped top2/set/uberdraw (which is what the raise should have been interpreted as) is iffy imo. We also don't see what the stack sizes are - if "idiot" guy is short enough, both raising and calling the shove, and the shove itself, make sense to me.

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Yeah, I agree....if the guy was short stacked it would be almost hard for him do make a wrong move in that situation - by either shoving or getting the money in first, even with just two pair.

let me try to retrieve the hand history from the hand in question

*********** # 68 **************
pokerstars Game #36849233554: Tournament #221476861, $4.00+$0.40 USD Omaha Pot Limit - Level XXII (1250/2500) - 2009/12/18 5:35:18 ET
Table '221476861 11' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 2: Grossberger (57066 in chips)
Seat 3: CC MON$Y (41225 in chips)
Seat 4: aynali (18070 in chips)
Seat 5: lifelike1992 (135144 in chips)
Seat 6: xLENNIEx (313234 in chips)
Seat 8: dlions4025 (86110 in chips)
dlions4025: posts small blind 1250
Grossberger: posts big blind 2500
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Grossberger [Kd 9d 9h 8d]
CC MON$Y: raises 6250 to 8750
aynali: folds
lifelike1992: calls 8750
xLENNIEx: calls 8750
dlions4025: folds
Grossberger: calls 6250
*** FLOP *** [Qs 4h 5s]
Grossberger: checks
CC MON$Y: checks
lifelike1992: bets 25000
xLENNIEx: raises 86250 to 111250
Grossberger: folds
CC MON$Y: folds
lifelike1992: raises 15144 to 126394 and is all-in
xLENNIEx: calls 15144
*** TURN *** [Qs 4h 5s] [6c]
*** RIVER *** [Qs 4h 5s 6c] [2d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
lifelike1992: shows [Qd 4s Jd 7h] (two pair, Queens and Fours)
xLENNIEx: shows [8c 4d Ks As] (a pair of Fours)
lifelike1992 collected 289038 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 289038 | Rake 0
Board [Qs 4h 5s 6c 2d]
Seat 2: Grossberger (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: CC MON$Y folded on the Flop
Seat 4: aynali folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: lifelike1992 showed [Qd 4s Jd 7h] and won (289038) with two pair, Queens and Fours
Seat 6: xLENNIEx (button) showed [8c 4d Ks As] and lost with a pair of Fours
Seat 8: dlions4025 (small blind) folded before Flop

OK HERE IS THE CHAT THAT FOLLOWED THIS HAND AND I JUST REALIZED xLENNIEx DIDN'T HAVE ANY STRAIGHT DRAW.



xLENNIEx said, "idiot*"
xLENNIEx said, "fkin moron"
xLENNIEx said, "top and bottom pair"
xLENNIEx said, "he shoves 120k"
xLENNIEx said, "lmao"
Grossberger said, "lol thats funny"
xLENNIEx said, "i have nut flush draw, higher 2 pair plus trips draw, striaght draw"
xLENNIEx said, "so sick"
Grossberger said, "and yet he still won the hand which means ...........
uh he had the BEST hand all you had was draws so I would say your the idiot not him"
xLENNIEx said, "he was a moron the whole tourney anyways, he got quads 2x calling with
nothing..."
xLENNIEx said, "learn to play omaha Gross"
xLENNIEx said, "read a fkin book or something"
xLENNIEx said, "LMAO"
xLENNIEx said, "you have no clue how to play omaha"
xLENNIEx said, "even a set after the flop can be a dog"
xLENNIEx said, "lmao"
xLENNIEx said, "nvm, i wouldnt want you to know anywyas"
Grossberger said, "I guess your right if 2 pair is beat by a draw then we should call a
moderator because the pot was awarded to the 2 pair and not the draws"
CC MON$Y said, "both u shouldnt of called preflop"
Grossberger said, "ok I'll do that uhhhh which book will tell me that 2 pair is beat by
draws ???????????? I definately want to read that book"
Grossberger said, "WE NEED A MOD AT TABLE 11 PLEASE FOR A RULING the pot was awarded to the
wrong person"
xLENNIEx said, "18 card straight draw with a flush draw is fav over a set even on the flop"
dlions4025 said, "the one who claims to know is the one who knows the least"
xLENNIEx said, "you just dont get it... fish never do"
xLENNIEx said, "but seriously Gross, you think top and bottom pair is nuts?"

xLENNIEx said, "hey Gross, this is your first ever cash in omaha eh?
Grossberger said, "omaha high probably and your point"
xLENNIEx said, "even hi/low you have only 128 bucks in wins..."
Grossberger said, "oh sorry I didnt realize you were Phil Ivey so sorry"
xLENNIEx said, "not saying i am pro just think you should have some game if you wanna talk
smack"
Grossberger said, "I'll be sure to fold 2 pair if you raise hell I might even fold quads
to you oh great one"
xLENNIEx said, "just made yourself look pathetic"
Grossberger said, "All I said was the best hand when the money went in won"
Grossberger said, "you called a guy an idiot for pushing with the best hand"
xLENNIEx said, "just read an omaha book and you'll see what i was talking about 2 pairs
and sets being dogs after the flop to straight and flush draws..."
xLENNIEx said, "maybe if you read an omaha book you would understand better"
xLENNIEx said, "thats your problem"
xLENNIEx said, "and therefore ZERO cashes in omaha"
xLENNIEx said, "just read one and know the basics of Omaha"
xLENNIEx said, "and you'll see what i mean"
xLENNIEx said, "maybe you'll even cash in an omaha tourney a 2nd time"
Grossberger said, "OHHHHHH I SEE SO YOUR SAYING THAT IN POKER THE DOGS NEVER WIN HUH
AHHHHH OK NOW IM ON THE SAME PAGE YEA I HAVE NEVER HAD POCKET ACES CRACKED BY A LESSER
HAND"
xLENNIEx said, "maybe if you actually played a big stack and not a 10BB stack through
the whole tourney you would understand"
Grossberger said, "well the "basics" as you call it is knowing what hands beat what and
the last time I looked (it might have changed) but 2 pair beat a draw now I'll go "read"
a book and see when they changed that rule"
dlions4025 said, "you guys should make out and get it over with"
Grossberger said, "NO NO THIS IS GOOD I DIDNT REALIZE THE FAVORITE ALWAYS WON THE POT SEE
I LEARNED SOMETHING SO I WILL READ A BOOK SO I CAN READ THE SECTION THAT THE FAVORITE AFTER
THE FLOP ALWAYS WINS"
xLENNIEx said, ""Pot Limit omaha poker" by Jeff Hwang is a good book try it. changes the
way you play omaha.. you will notice better results... No BS"
Grossberger said, "what chapter in the book says favorites will always win"
xLENNIEx said, "in what book do you read that you should put your money in when your a
dog?? cause it must be called... " LOSING IN PLO " by Grossberger"
Grossberger said, "I never tried giving lessons I simply want to know whe n a draw beat 2
pair"
Grossberger said, "or the chapter that straight and flush draws will ALWAYS hit after the
flop"
xLENNIEx said, "most of the time, just get over yourself and read a book"
xLENNIEx said, "thats all im saying"
xLENNIEx said, "good luck, and maybe if you werent so hard headed. You would actually cash
in a PLO tourney"

And last but not least the tourny results

PokerStars Tournament #221476861, Pot Limit Omaha
Buy-In: $4.00/$0.40 USD
348 players
Total Prize Pool: $1392.00 USD
Tournament started 2009/12/18 1:30:00 ET
Tournament finished 2009/12/18 6:52:36 ET
1: lifelike1992 (garner), $269.47 (19.358%)
2: ted1319 (saint nazaire), $201.84 (14.5%)
3: eityby55 (Краснодар), $153.12 (11%)
4: Grossberger (Seven Hills), $114.84 (8.25%)
5: fullrolla858 (Springfield), $79.34 (5.699%)
6: joy-t946 (Ярославль), $61.24 (4.399%)
7: dlions4025 (fremont), $47.32 (3.399%)
8: xLENNIEx (Tuktoyaktuk), $33.40 (2.399%)
9: aynali (london), $24.36 (1.75%)

That is a looooooooooooooooong chat. Exactly why I always have all chat muted. Too distracting.

Mase31683 said:

That is a looooooooooooooooong chat. Exactly why I always have all chat muted. Too distracting.

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lol - i always have it on so i can get a sense of personality types and skill level - anyone who goes on and on like that, lecturing others on how to play the game properly, i classify as almost certainly a nit (i.e., easier to bluff than fish) - but i almost never chat myself other than the occasional "nh" or "wp" (I may or may not be sarcastic w latter comment ).

Unless you have the nuts before the last couple of cards hit the table being favorite does not give you a God given right to win. Okay maybe the guy was chancing it but it came off for him. That does not make him an idiot. I agree that if somebody is playing like this by taking chances then you want toplay against them. I would have been saying good hand and hoping that he kept playing like that so I could take his chips off him next time.

So you were able to play good poker while doing all this chatting?
I would have had to sit out while typing all that

xLENNIEx (button) showed [8c 4d Ks As] and lost with a pair of Fours

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Is this a hand to call a raise with. I'm not real well versed in Omaha Hi but I thought you didn't want to play half a hand. That looks pretty shabby

4: Grossberger (Seven Hills), $114.84 (8.25%)

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nh, wp

Maybe your "buddy" could use a book on statistics, or table manners These guys think somehow we should just give them all the money at the outset.

I like that he let on that he was stalking you too. As if a few results on OPR mean anything on a given hand. I'd say ban his chat just to piss him off, except he's giving away so much.:icon_sant