running it twice...

while im fully aware of the insurance value,and the "huge chip swing tempering" value of running it twice, i really cant understand why a lot of pros are running it twice. I mean we are plying poker to make money...and a lot theses all ins are a players shot. Id rather run it 3 times. At least, that way some one is making money . W e sit for hours waiting for the moment 2 good players are willing to put all the money in, and on a coin flip why take that away.

- They are often playing for very large sums of money.
- They are usually playing against other pros of similar ability and are just trading money around anyway - they'd rather just come closer to true EV each hand

Even pros can feel guilty about the bad beats.....?

Is it in a joking manner? Some players who are on a draw and don't hit on the river will jokingly ask a 6th community card to be turned so they can (albeit too late) hit their draw.

I'm not a supporter of "running it twice" too. I wouldn't mind to lower the variance if both pots won't be raked separately . At least I think it works like this on PS. But have to confess that I have never even tried it so I'm not sure. Do you guys know sth about it? How PS rake those "run it twice" hands?

I would enjoy running it twice sometimes

murrdog said:

while im fully aware of the insurance value,and the "huge chip swing tempering" value of running it twice, i really cant understand why a lot of pros are running it twice. I mean we are plying poker to make money...and a lot theses all ins are a players shot. Id rather run it 3 times. At least, that way some one is making money . W e sit for hours waiting for the moment 2 good players are willing to put all the money in, and on a coin flip why take that away.

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Totally agree i will run it 3 times just to be nice wether im ahead or behind because Karma is a bitch but not twice it gets chopped and no one wins then u have to wait for hours just to do that again NO FUN

It's really up to each pro. You'll notice there are some that are firmly against it and never run it twice (Barry Greenstein is a prominent example).

I think some do it just because they're degens and it gives them two or more sweats for the price of one.

And others do it just because it makes the other player happy, and a happy opponent is one who'll stay in the game and keep their money on the table. See footage of Doyle Brunson on HSP, for example - he won't necessarily ask for a pot to be run twice, but he'll often say 'whatever you want to do' when somebody else wants to run it twice.

Very good point imo ^ thanks for that

I don't like running it twice, especially if I'm the one ahead in the hand. Why give your opponent two chances at his draw?

Well the benefits of running it twice can be if your playing a huge pot and your flipping it may be in your best interest to run it twice, so variance doesn't hit you as bad.

Huge pots and noone wants to loose. But that is their choice if they want to rund the hand several times

Running it twice means you think you make bad calls. I'm against it. If you lose or take a bad beat while your ahead, you should just top up and keep grinding. The money will come your way if you put your money in good in the long run.

vinylspiros said:

Running it twice means you think you make bad calls. I'm against it. If you lose or take a bad beat while your ahead, you should just top up and keep grinding. The money will come your way if you put your money in good in the long run.

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This is just dead wrong. In most all-in on the flop situations, one of the players is ahead --- sometimes materially ahead --- when the players agree to run it multiple times. That player that's ahead agrees to multiple runs to minimize the variance, and in some situations this is clearly a reasonable decision. I am certain that we all run the same in the long run (in terms of "luck"). I am much less sure, however, that we all run the same in the biggest pots (once again, due to randomness, not some rigtard theory). If you generally only play $25K pots but find yourself in a $200K pot, you need a lot of $25K wins to make up for the one loss if your opponent happens to win the big one.

Suppose you're playing a $200K pot where you and your opponent are both all-in on the flop. You hold top two pair vs. villains's nut flush draw. For instance A7 spades vs. KQ off, with a flop of KQ4 and two spades. The guy with two pair is a 64% favorite, but more than 1/3 of the time he'll lose the entire pot.

In this case as the guy holding two pair, I would want to run it three times --- drastically increasing the odds that the two pair turns out to be profitable, even if the profit is less than max profit. I would probably accept running it twice, though, as it makes it nearly certain (7/8) that I break even at least. You may not want to play it this way, but it's good variance/bankroll management. If you get into a LOT of $200K pots so you believe that, in the long run, your luck will even out there, I'm fine with not running multiple times --- but there are situations when it's clearly a reasonable decision.

-HooDooKoo

^^hoodookoo, I get what your saying about the 200 k pots.yea sure. No disagreeing there. I'm talking about when your regularly grinding your 10 or 25 or 50 NL daily grind on stars or wherever. I see some people there running it twice and I think ughhhh. Why? It's a standard flip. I'm not talking about the day that you see me on the big game, when of course i' ll want to run it 37 times because it's a bigger game than usual. You are referring to larger than usual games. I am talking about in our everyday grind where we are playing at least 2 to 3 k hands a day. You get me ?We' re talking about different things here.

vinylspiros said:

^^hoodookoo, I get what your saying about the 200 k pots.yea sure. No disagreeing there. I'm talking about when your regularly grinding your 10 or 25 or 50 NL daily grind on stars or wherever. I see some people there running it twice and I think ughhhh. Why? It's a standard flip. I'm not talking about the day that you see me on the big game, when of course i' ll want to run it 37 times because it's a bigger game than usual. You are referring to larger than usual games. I am talking about in our everyday grind where we are playing at least 2 to 3 k hands a day. You get me ?We' re talking about different things here.

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I hear what you're saying. I think the "answer" is largely dependent on the size of your bankroll relative to the stakes you are playing. People playing a little bankroll short might use multiple runs as a variance mitigating factor that allows them to play a little higher than their bankroll supports. I wouldn't choose to run multiple times grinding at 50NL, but I'm not going to fault someone who does because it can be a viable bankroll management strategy.

Best of luck.

-HooDooKoo

HooDooKoo said:

I hear what you're saying. I think the "answer" is largely dependent on the size of your bankroll relative to the stakes you are playing. People playing a little bankroll short might use multiple runs as a variance mitigating factor that allows them to play a little higher than their bankroll supports. I wouldn't choose to run multiple times grinding at 50NL, but I'm not going to fault someone who does because it can be a viable bankroll management strategy.

Best of luck.

-HooDooKoo

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Nice quality posts man. Good luck to you too.

murrdog said:

while im fully aware of the insurance value,and the "huge chip swing tempering" value of running it twice, i really cant understand why a lot of pros are running it twice. I mean we are plying poker to make money...and a lot theses all ins are a players shot. Id rather run it 3 times. At least, that way some one is making money . W e sit for hours waiting for the moment 2 good players are willing to put all the money in, and on a coin flip why take that away.

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I totally agree with you. I think run it twice is a bad oppurtunity, luck is one part of the game, sometimes you like it, sometimes you dont. And I am not saying this because I am a donk, but I like the variance in poker. It wouldnt be fun if AA in the pocket always win..

90% of time they run it twice because they play for TV Shows, when they play for real, I never see to run it twice...

When you see this on TV you have to think those guys play each other a lot and no matter how much they look like rivals, they are probably friends. That and the amount of respect they have for each other is why they run it twice so much in my opinion. I would personally never run it twice especially in lower stakes that I play. If I was playing for half my bank roll and felt unsure about the call, I may run it twice.