Rules question - have to show or not?

naitutreaba

naitutreaba

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Total posts
266
Chips
0
hi guys!i was playing a live cash game(holdem) and we had a problem:
-buton raise and from BB i call.
-he bets the flop,i call( for straight up and down)
-on turn goes check-check
-on the river (miss my straight) i bet and he calls.
Because i know he has me beat i folded my hand and he did't want to show his hand...and from here start a nice fight:))about showing or not.so should he show his hand and or not?what are the rules in this situations?.Ty!
 
TimovieMan

TimovieMan

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 16, 2016
Total posts
2,264
Chips
0
If you folded, he can muck, imo.
 
SBEP

SBEP

Rock Star
Platinum Level
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Total posts
298
Chips
0
If u want to sett some1 later for a bluff i would show him/her my hand, always :D its good to show hands once in a while, it makes bluffin so much easier, they already have u as a good solid player, who doesnt bluff that much, so u can get away easy with bluffing, and when u bluff, show them the bluff too, so they will know u are capable of that too, so the next time some1 is in a hand with you they will never know what u are holding :D and thats the whole point of the game :D
 
Vitaliy Popik

Vitaliy Popik

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 16, 2016
Total posts
74
Chips
0
When i have full house , or strong set`s of QQ , KK and AA , when all the opponent`s will fold.. I show them my card`s) I showed 3-4 winners hands and then i will easy play with bluff ))) They are 3-4 after winning my hands already believe that this time will be my hand and without thinking made fold , giving to me bank without fight :)
 
sar1767

sar1767

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 15, 2016
Total posts
82
Chips
0
It is also strategy. By showing card u inform ur hand to other player. I would better never show card while playing. Ur partner may learn ur game strategy
 
TimovieMan

TimovieMan

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 16, 2016
Total posts
2,264
Chips
0
When i have full house , or strong set`s of QQ , KK and AA , when all the opponent`s will fold.. I show them my card`s) I showed 3-4 winners hands and then i will easy play with bluff ))) They are 3-4 after winning my hands already believe that this time will be my hand and without thinking made fold , giving to me bank without fight :)
And do you ever consider that the hands you don't show might indicate you were bluffing, negating your entire set-up?

I just never show if I don't have to. The less they know...
 
R

roygor

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 19, 2015
Total posts
41
Chips
0
If you talk first and you muck, I do not think he must show you his cards.

I always show my cards, sometimes you can win even if you bluff or miss.
 
qkamara6ina

qkamara6ina

Rock Star
Platinum Level
Joined
Jun 9, 2015
Total posts
132
Chips
0
To sgow your cards is good strategy in perspective but the point us to know when to show them.
 
R

redmast

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Jun 12, 2016
Total posts
1,987
Awards
2
Chips
126
Show or not to show it's your right. Sometimes it is used for future bluff. Sometimes, in order not to offend the opponent. I do not show their cards. Only if I want to boast a very good combination. It just never show it reveals my game tactics.
 
detroitjunkie

detroitjunkie

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 11, 2009
Total posts
826
Awards
4
Chips
0
Ok, since most are not understanding the question - here is your answer.

Unfortunately the answer is it depends on what rules you follow.

In this case, most non-casino poker rooms do not require the person to show because you mucked your hand, therefor villain has only live hand remaining - however, if you dispute the hand, and yours can be 100% identifiable from the muck, you can take your hand back and demand a showdown, but you must also show in this case.

At the wsop, you MUST show cards to win ANY pot no matter what if it reaches showdown, and a lot of casinos use this rule too, its part of the anti-collusion mindset of rules

In my room I would not require the hand to be shown because you gave up and killed your hand. The interesting thing is, if villain asks to see your hand he must also show his, and your hand becomes live again at this point, and if it wins it wins. If you dissect the rule, another player can ask to see either hand according to WSOP rules, but your hand would remain dead.

Whenever you have a home game, you should always pick a rule-set to follow, most can be found online, and this will resolve any disputes. I also suggest that you nominate someone to be the 'floor', someone who has read all the rules and can be trusted to make a fair decision.
 
Delenia

Delenia

Community Guide
Community Guide
Joined
Oct 25, 2015
Total posts
2,144
Awards
13
US
Chips
325
Ok, since most are not understanding the question - here is your answer.

Unfortunately the answer is it depends on what rules you follow.

In this case, most non-casino poker rooms do not require the person to show because you mucked your hand, therefor villain has only live hand remaining - however, if you dispute the hand, and yours can be 100% identifiable from the muck, you can take your hand back and demand a showdown, but you must also show in this case.

At the WSOP, you MUST show cards to win ANY pot no matter what if it reaches showdown, and a lot of casinos use this rule too, its part of the anti-collusion mindset of rules

In my room I would not require the hand to be shown because you gave up and killed your hand. The interesting thing is, if villain asks to see your hand he must also show his, and your hand becomes live again at this point, and if it wins it wins. If you dissect the rule, another player can ask to see either hand according to WSOP rules, but your hand would remain dead.

Whenever you have a home game, you should always pick a rule-set to follow, most can be found online, and this will resolve any disputes. I also suggest that you nominate someone to be the 'floor', someone who has read all the rules and can be trusted to make a fair decision.

Don't the rules also differ if it is a "cash game" rather than a tournament?
 
detroitjunkie

detroitjunkie

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 11, 2009
Total posts
826
Awards
4
Chips
0
Don't the rules also differ if it is a "cash game" rather than a tournament?

Typically yes, but in this case maybe not as much as you would think, only that you may get a touch of resistance from the Floor to see the hands in a cash game if someone asks

in WSOP no - this rule is hardfast in all games - in cash you may see someone get away with no showing here because the dealer is a noob, but if ANY player wants to see it it MUST be shown - however this rule is pushed heavily in training so it seldom happens
 
G

galojmi

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 23, 2016
Total posts
187
Chips
0
I never show my cards but sometimes I did because to earn the believe of others that is very important I thought
 
billbaffles

billbaffles

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
May 15, 2016
Total posts
89
Chips
0
Whoever bets/raises last must show first. If there is no action on the river then whoever is in earliest position must show first. If you muck your hand because you "know" your beat, then the other player may take the pot and muck their hand as well. But, in most casino's, anyone who was dealt into the hand has the right to see any hand that made it to the river so any player that was dealt could ask to see your cards, as well as your opponent in that spot. Most likely (depends on casino rules), even though you mucked your hand, you have the right to see your opponents holdings on the river since you were dealt into the hand. Poker etiquette is different though, if you muck and your opponent is the only one left in the hand, then they win, and can muck. Players get upset at people who ask to see the hands of mucked losers and in this case winning hand too often but any player who was dealt into the hand actually by rule has the right to do so as often as they wish. Most online sites follow the same rules and you can always go to hand history and see every mucked hand.
 
P

Phlegmatic

Rising Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 25, 2015
Total posts
24
Chips
0
I believe the one who lead out and bet is the one who shows. If you muck then you're pretty much giving him the pot regardless of what he has. Also, this is something I can't exactly remember but if you're the better and you show and he mucks his hand you can request to see his hand but it's considered bad etiquette and it's frowned upon but legal. These are more tournament rules that I've seen over time rather than home games.
 
Last edited:
detroitjunkie

detroitjunkie

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 11, 2009
Total posts
826
Awards
4
Chips
0
I believe the one who lead out and bet is the one who shows. If you muck then you're pretty much giving him the pot regardless of what he has. Also, this is something I can't exactly remember but if you're the better and you show and he mucks his hand you can request to see his hand but it's considered bad etiquette and it's frowned upon but legal. These are more tournament rules that I've seen over time rather than home games.

yes you can request to see his hand if its a showdown - (however you will then have to show yours too if you havent already). in wsop, if you ask to see his hand it now becomes live, and if it was misread and actually a winner you will not be awarded the pot - fyi

its not frowned upon - IF - you do not do it often. once or twice over a 3 hour session will go overlooked...but if you are asking every other hand you will be punished by the players verbally, may not get any more action, and in some cases even a penalty for slowing a game down (in tournament and time rake games - especially if you were not in the hand at showdown)

and just to clarify, if there is action on the river - whoever had last aggression must show first - if there is no action on the river, closest to the button must show first (it varies when in a cash game and the action is all in before the river)
 
C

Chemist

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 17, 2009
Total posts
1,480
Chips
0
If you get CALLED you have to show.
You don't actually have the right to muck.

Normally you would just say good call, yeah I was bluffing because I missed, and laugh it off.
He would then show or not show at his choice say thanks and take the pot.
In Home Games I have seen people so embarrassed that they have shoved their cards into the stack and everyone laughed as the remaining player collected his winnings.

In a formal situation the dealer has control of the cards.
So antics like that would probably incur a penalty.

At the WSOP, you MUST show cards to win ANY pot no matter what if it reaches showdown, and a lot of casinos use this rule too, its part of the anti-collusion mindset of rules


A bet and a call at the river equals showdown.
Even if you mucked your cards to the dealer his cards would still have to be shown before he was awarded the pot.

Because you were only called, not raised, you did not have the right to muck (and your cards are actually still live). Any player at the table is entitled to ask for your cards to be shown. It is very poor etiquette without good reason but can be useful to stop collusion.


In a live tournament I called a chap on the river with Ace King believing it to beat his Ace Rag. He said 'you got me' and mucked his cards to the dealer. I showed the Ace King following the show to win rules. In gathering the cards the dealer turned his Ace Rag over and the player said 'oh hang on I missed that I caught bottom pair'.
The Tournament Director was called to the table and declared that the mucked hand was still live and wins the pot. (puke :icon_puke).
 
XXPXXP

XXPXXP

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 7, 2012
Total posts
5,511
Awards
2
Chips
0
I think
in the river , you bet and get called
you need to show your X high first, and ask, and if button wins he needs to show.
I don't know if you muck and he needs to show or not.
 
B

Broon1234

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 11, 2016
Total posts
132
Chips
0
If you can avoid showing your hand that's great to give them less information but you should never muck. Sometimes people call ridiculous things or thought they had something they didn't.
 
detroitjunkie

detroitjunkie

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 11, 2009
Total posts
826
Awards
4
Chips
0
In a live tournament I called a chap on the river with Ace King believing it to beat his Ace Rag. He said 'you got me' and mucked his cards to the dealer. I showed the Ace King following the show to win rules. In gathering the cards the dealer turned his Ace Rag over and the player said 'oh hang on I missed that I caught bottom pair'.
The Tournament Director was called to the table and declared that the mucked hand was still live and wins the pot. (puke :icon_puke).

I would have to say this was a dealer error, UNLESS the particular room rules dictate that the dealer turn the hand over. Once he mucked and you showed, both of you violated a rule, therefor my feeling is they cancel out, you are accepting that he has mucked when you show out of turn. The dealer should have never turned them over unless someone asked. Even if it is the rule, the dealer should have called the floor over before turning the cards face up for a ruling. (only exception is if one of you were all in). Most casinos do not have dealers that would do this, nor do their rules say to do this. Bad dealer, bad!

I just now saw that you are in England, let me add USA casinos and card rooms to all of this. not sure how the rest of the crazy world works
 
TimovieMan

TimovieMan

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 16, 2016
Total posts
2,264
Chips
0
A bet and a call at the river equals showdown.
Even if you mucked your cards to the dealer his cards would still have to be shown before he was awarded the pot.
Does that apply to a checked down river as well?

As in: should Ivey still have been awarded the pot here:

[ame=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTfcnyHtz88]Ivey mucks winning flush[/ame]
 
Speedbruce

Speedbruce

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Total posts
247
Chips
0
Usually when the last aggressor mucks his hand you can say i'm playing the board and muck your cards, this way you don't have to show. Unless they have a specific rule for this kind of situation.
 
detroitjunkie

detroitjunkie

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 11, 2009
Total posts
826
Awards
4
Chips
0
Usually when the last aggressor mucks his hand you can say i'm playing the board and muck your cards, this way you don't have to show. Unless they have a specific rule for this kind of situation.


OK. Again, the dealer will not flip the cards up unless asked by a player, so Ivey loses unless 1 of 2 things happen - his opponent asks to see his hand - Ivey asks for hand back before it becomes indistinguishable into the muck pile.

Also, there is a specific rule to your question - according to WSOP rule you MUST show your cards even if you are playing the board to win the pot, no exceptions
 
Poker Rules - Poker Games
Top