Reading opponents ranges

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stg1969

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I have a confession to make. Every time i see a thread, or hear a comment about opponents ranges, i go blank.

There was a thread on here yesterday, where someone was SO specific, it made my mind boggle. He was saying, Villains range is 99+ AK, AQ, AJs, KQs blah blah....i'm like....WHAT?

I'm sorry but i just find this almost impossible..i'm not an unintelligent person, have good qualifications, including a grade A, A Level in Mathematics, but when i play poker, i simply cannot put people on ranges.

Now perhaps its several reasons, when i play tourneys or SnG, probably not enough time to assess these players, when i play cash, i still cant do it.

Sure I can label players, TAG, TAGFISH, LAG, Maniac etc, but to be specific about ranges, im totally lost.

Am i alone here?

Or am i missing something? Like your making assumptions on ranges because of VPIP and PFR stats?

I know some of you are just going to say that i'm not being observant enough, but i really dont see that as the answer. Most of the people i come across have 2 speeds, stop and go, lol... You cant put someone on a range when they limp from UTG with KK one minute, and then raise 3x blind with Q9s the next time you see their hand.

Totally lost i'm afraid, and i can't be alone.
 
Arjonius

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Putting people on ranges is a continuing process that involves observation plus using what you see to narrow down what an opponent is likely to have in any given situation. So for example, an unknown player opens UTG. You have nothing person-specific to go on, so let's say you make an initial assumption that he'll open pretty tight, maybe 99+ AK AQ AJs. But the hand goes to showdown, and it turns out he had ATo.

You now know his range is wider, and that you can add not only ATo but also AJo and ATs. There's also a decent chance you can add in a few other hands like 88, 77 and KQ. These aren't certain, but hey, you've only seen one hand. And you can also reasonably assume that his range is pretty similar in the other EP seats.

After a few orbits, while you haven't seen any more hands he opened from EP, you've noticed that he has opened 4 out of 11 possible times, and has also opened often from MP and LP when it was folded to him. It's a tiny sample, so he could easily just be getting good cards, but it's also within reason to assume he's looser than the above range, and laggy overall, possibly an aggressive maniac

When he opens again from EP, you know you can put him on a wider than avg range. 36% (4/11) seems high, so maybe 20%. That's roughly 66+, most aces, all broadways and some 1- and 2-gappers like Q9s and J9s. So, you can play accordingly. And if he continues to open more than 20%, you can further broaden his range.

Position is also an important factor. Let's say our imaginary villain has had 4 chances to steal from the button or the CO, and has done so all 4 times. His range may not be as wide as any two, but as a preliminary assumption, you can tentatively put his range at more than half of all hands.

Since it's a process, as you see him play more, you gain more info that lets you modify his presumed ranges in various situations, positions, with various stack sizes, etc.
 
Ducky7

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Putting opponents on a range of hands is something that takes practice, when are trying to work out what your opponent has you are putting them on a range of hands. Like anything the more you practice the better you will become.

When talking about ranges it means potential hands your opponent could have in a certain spot. For example, you open with JJ and get a call from the TAG big blind.
Flop comes 5h 6h Kc, he checks to you and you continuation bet and he check - raises. Putting him on a range here would mean potential hands he could have and would play this way. Ie 2 pair hands (56s), sets, flush and straight draws. Now he is not likely to check raise hands like K10, KJ in this spot nor middle pairs (88, 99) he is more likely to call so you can take these out of his "range". So when you have put your opponent on a potential range of hands you can then use previous information to work out what line is best for you to take then on.
 
MediaBLITZ

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Have you not ever been in a hand with a board like 346Tr and your opponent all of a sudden makes a huge bet and you thought to yourself -

"Let's see, this guy raised 3x the BB preflop and then checked the flop so there is no way he is holding 57 to have this straight. Must have like AJ."

Or take the same board but now the same guy is the BB and there is no raise so he only checked to see the flop. Is it now more possible he could have 57?

Well this - in it's crudest form - is ranging. What you are reading is taking that ranging to a level that is more useful and actually going beyon assigning one or two possible hands. After all it is called ranging - and with the core word being RANGE then it needs to go beyond one or two hands. Take for example again the big blind that was limped to and all he has to do is check to see a flop. What is his range? Easy - every freaking card combination in the deck. Once the flop comes and he stays in the hand we get some clues to start to narrow his range (otherwise, we assume, he would have folded). Now go back to the raiser UTG - what is his range? Well it is highly unlikely it is every card combination in the deck, right? So what do we know (and how much do we know) about him to formulate some logical card options for him to take this action with everyone at the table still to act after him?

So this ranging has progressions. You are ranging people as the game progresses and cataloging the info in your brain. That way an hour later when UTG limps in you can flash back and know this is the guy who limped with KK in the same position a while back and be on guard.

But you are also doing a ranging progression in an individual hand. You start with a fairly wide preflop range on the guy you are up against. Hopefully the flop along with his action/reaction to the flop will help you narrow that range - same with the turn and same with the river.

Yeah, you make a lot of assumptions with ranging. Remember, poker is a game of incomplete information. The idea, as the game progresses, is to remove some of those assumptions with concrete historical and logical evidence that supports your thinking. This is why you do not want to ever show your cards when playing with anyone who has a clue. They are waiting for, wanting and needing that information to support or adjust their assumptions about what you are doing.

This is why you want to pay attention to the hands you are not involved with. I am always secretly rooting for any hand I am not playing to go all the way to showdown as I get the most information possible about the players this way.
 
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stg1969

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Thanks for the replies, and while im not dissagreeing, I cant make any money playing 1 table, so it's difficult to do this when i'm playing 9 micro stakes tables...where i try to play ABC poker just to make money.

Playing a tourney or at my local pub is much different, i watch every hand.

By the way, since ive been playing online and learning for the last year or so, when i go and play at my local pub now, i usually win, oh and they all moan when i raise 4x the blind... "oh here we go, he's off again".. etc it's funny as hell.

I Once bet 2000 chips into a 2000 pot, when I had top 2 pair but there was a flush draw on...and they said it was way over the top (mainly the guy with q/10 spades moaning).. lol
 
sam1chips

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I seemed to have a similar problem when I started to play. If you work at it you DO get better at reading opponents. The main piece of advice i offer to you is to play one table at a time, and pay attention to the way your opponents play, even when you arent in the hand. Also, whenever it goes to a showdown (after the river, where both players have to flip their cards over) go back to the hand history and see how each player played their hand.
One of the biggest things I look for is how people react to flush draws/ open ended straight draws / gut shot straight draws
 
MediaBLITZ

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I seemed to have a similar problem when I started to play. If you work at it you DO get better at reading opponents. The main piece of advice i offer to you is to play one table at a time, and pay attention to the way your opponents play, even when you arent in the hand. Also, whenever it goes to a showdown (after the river, where both players have to flip their cards over) go back to the hand history and see how each player played their hand.
One of the biggest things I look for is how people react to flush draws/ open ended straight draws / gut shot straight draws

Yeah, if you are starting out with this then definitely one table and even break that down to just a few guys. In tournament you definitely want to get a range on the chip leader - after all you are going to have go through him to win. Other than that it is recommended to focus on the two to your immediate left and right. Take it a step at a time and all of sudden you will it coming pretty naturally (with effort).
 
dj11

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STG, Are you using a tracker and HUD?
 
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stg1969

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No im not... i couldnt get the trial of pokertarcker to work..
 
dj11

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No im not... i couldnt get the trial of pokertarcker to work..

Try harder, figure out how to do it. It will give you a big start in determining ranges. It will not tell you exact ranges but it will help you figure out what ranges you can discard when analyzing a situation.
 
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stg1969

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I guess i was just being lazy, it was something to do with the PostgreSQL server, it wouldnt accept the passwords that were recommended on the web, dunno if anyone else had this issue?
 
Ducky7

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Ye i had this issue, cant remember exactly what i did but i googled it and found the solution pretty quickly, are you on xp?
 
Arjonius

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Thanks for the replies, and while im not dissagreeing, I cant make any money playing 1 table, so it's difficult to do this when i'm playing 9 micro stakes tables...where i try to play ABC poker just to make money.
It's not a binary choice. You have more options than only playing 1 table and getting as much practice reading as possible, or playing 9 and getting minimal practice.

If you want to boost how rapidly you learn and improve, you sometimes have to make decisions that aren't the most profitable in the short term. Or the most fun. Like working on your game more and playing less. This can include not just playing fewer tables, but also spending more of your poker hours on away from the table study.
 
JOEBOB69

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Hey
step 1 get PT or HEM to work
step 2 get poker stove
step 3 play less tables
step 4 take notes on the villains when you get to see there hand at showdown,if your in the hand or not.Take notes by position,if there was a limper/limpers,bet sizing board texture,actions.
step 5 practice with PT or HEM and stove
step 6 read some books on the subject.I would say Hole Card Confessions would be a good start.
step 7 ?
step 8 crush bitches
 
TheKAAHK

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Hey
step 1 get PT or HEM to work
step 2 get poker stove
step 3 play less tables
step 4 take notes on the villains when you get to see there hand at showdown,if your in the hand or not.Take notes by position,if there was a limper/limpers,bet sizing board texture,actions.
step 5 practice with PT or HEM and stove
step 6 read some books on the subject.I would say Hole Card Confessions would be a good start.
step 7 ?
step 8 crush bitches

I took to doing this all the time (except step 6, I just watched a shittonne of online vids) and it works like a dream. Follow these easy steps, you'd be a fool not to.
 
Ezekiel162

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I guess i was just being lazy, it was something to do with the PostgreSQL server, it wouldnt accept the passwords that were recommended on the web, dunno if anyone else had this issue?
If you're referring to the password for PostgreSQL server, you can do a manual reset by going to start>run>cmd... type in w/o quotes "net user postgres postgres" which will reset the password back to the default of "postgres"...
 
dj11

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I guess i was just being lazy, it was something to do with the PostgreSQL server, it wouldnt accept the passwords that were recommended on the web, dunno if anyone else had this issue?

Actually yes, I had to dig to find that I had changed the pw, and also retrieve it. It is on your PC. Check out the PT4 forums, postgres files and maybe even find my posts to zero in on the instructions to find what your postgres pw currently is.

try finding it in C:\Program Files (x86)\PokerTracker 3\Data\Config (though remove the (x86) if you are on a 32 bit machine).
 
Ezekiel162

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Actually yes, I had to dig to find that I had changed the password, and also retrieve it. It is on your PC. Check out the PT4 forums, postgres files and maybe even find my posts to zero in on the instructions to find what your postgres password currently is.

try finding it in C:\Program Files (x86)\PokerTracker 3\Data\Config (though remove the (x86) if you are on a 32 bit machine).
^this sounds better dj'... I only gave the reset suggestion as a final solution. I currently use HM so I didn't know if the config files for both were fairly similar...
 
okeedokalee

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Go to 2+2 and search items by Pokey.He has brilliant stuff on ranges.
You will need a HUD.
Once you are aware of your opponents VPIP and PFR, hand reading and ranges will become a lot more obvious
 
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stg1969

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It's not a binary choice. You have more options than only playing 1 table and getting as much practice reading as possible, or playing 9 and getting minimal practice.

If you want to boost how rapidly you learn and improve, you sometimes have to make decisions that aren't the most profitable in the short term. Or the most fun. Like working on your game more and playing less. This can include not just playing fewer tables, but also spending more of your poker hours on away from the table study.

Sorry, i probably gave the wrong impression/reason for playing multiple tables, you're right, its not about the money at this stage, i am learning...

The absolute truth of the matter is that when i play 1 or 2 tables, I play too loose because im waiting for hands, i think this is quite common.

What i have done (and thanks to all for advice on Poker Tracker), is I have got poker tracker working for last 2 days, and i have also compromised, i'm playing 4 tables.

Ive always made notes on players, but since using a HUD ive been amazed at the imrovement in not only my own discipline (ive always been a bit of a stat freak, now im looking and saying, ah, 28/14 is no good, im not gonna play that J/Q, and im gonna raise with my A/10s rather than limp etc).

Also, i have found (and i dont know who else agrees), that it's easier to make decisions on opposition players when you have a HUD on them.

Yes its not always right, but i'm much happier folding my AQ to a raise UTG from a 16/16 player, but if a 50/10 player enters the pot before me, its an easier decision to reraise etc..

PS... I see 2 different stats bandied around for post flop aggression, one is displayed as a figure, ie, 3.5 and one as a percentage.

pokerstars uses a %age, and i was wondering what you guys consider to be a good AFq% range.

Cheers
 
dj11

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Which Version of PT...3 or 4. Makes a difference as PT4 offers more precise range stats. PT3 ranges at first HUD glance are averaged over all positions.

In either case you will start having historical data on these players tendencies. Obviously the large the sample, the better the data.

So, for example, if you see players with a VP of 25, dig out your hand rankings chart and find the top 25% of hands. That is his range. But it doesn't end there. You want to expand what you think you understand by first figuring out if a player seems to understand position. PT4 looks to be better at find help for this.

With an average VP @ 25%, if this player does that at any position, you might assume he does not understand position, and act accordingly. And label him as novice.

If his stats help you see he is tighter in EP (10-15%) then to get to the average, by necessity, he will be looser in LP (30-40%). These values should relate to that hand chart you dug up.

Get this much figured out, and you can proceed to more advanced range figuring.
 
okeedokalee

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Which Version of PT...3 or 4. Makes a difference as PT4 offers more precise range stats. PT3 ranges at first HUD glance are averaged over all positions.

In either case you will start having historical data on these players tendencies. Obviously the large the sample, the better the data.

So, for example, if you see players with a VP of 25, dig out your hand rankings chart and find the top 25% of hands. That is his range. But it doesn't end there. You want to expand what you think you understand by first figuring out if a player seems to understand position. PT4 looks to be better at find help for this.

With an average VP @ 25%, if this player does that at any position, you might assume he does not understand position, and act accordingly. And label him as novice.

If his stats help you see he is tighter in EP (10-15%) then to get to the average, by necessity, he will be looser in LP (30-40%). These values should relate to that hand chart you dug up.

Get this much figured out, and you can proceed to more advanced range figuring.

Agree with above.

However range doesn't end with VPIP.

PFR tells what pockets he will raise with.

If the player is say 15/10 and he limps into pot then it is fairly easy to assume he is limping the bottom 5% of his range ( see PokerStove) as he would have raised the top 10%.:marchmell
 
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