Random Number Generators?

Hi guys,

I am new to the online poker community. Being an old school live player I have some concerns about RNGs. How are they regulated? And how do they work? If I do decide to start playing for real money, I would like a suggestion from veteran online poker players who trust sites with fair RNGs. As an American, I would like to know where can i play legally and would be the best site for soft competion and a fair RNG.

Thanks in advance,

sneakyaces

There are sweatshops in india full of people shuffling packs of cards and writing down the order in which they end up. These are then emailed to the poker sites who "parse" them into their game engines. You can sometimes tell when they haven't shuffled very well, because you start getting flops like 4♠5♠6♠ or hole cards like J♦10♦. Pretty unavoidable but I wouldn't worry as everyone's in the same boat.

Man, that is brilliant!

To answer your question, sneakyaces, I'm not completely sure if RNGs are actually regulated or not. Though I've played a fair number of hands in my time playing online, and I can honestly say that it really shouldnt be a concern of yours as to how accurate the RNGs are. If they're 'rigged' or inaccurate, then they are to such a small degree that it's not noticeable.

ps if you're switching from b&m to online, I'd suggest reading Killer Poker Online by John Vorhaus.

There's no easy answer to this question because there is just no requirement that gaming sites have any regulations whatsoever. But, most if not all of the larger and more reputable sites have taken it apon themselves to gain certification through many of the on-line gaming commissions throughout the world. Most of them are sponsored by host nations such as Antigua or Barbuda, but the largest and by most accounts best is the Kahnawake Gaming Commission, part of the Mohawk Indian Reservation near Montreal Quebec. Full Tilt, poker stars, Absolute, Titan and all of the Prima Sites (Criptologic now) are members. In order for a poker room to gain and then maintain a license at KGC they must provide extensive information to assure that :

1. That only suitable persons and entities are permitted to operate within Kahnawake;
2. That the games offered are fair to the player; and
3. That winners are paid.

Monitoring and auditing are then conducted on a regular basis (monthly) to ensure continuing compliance. In the case of KGC an outsite agency, Gaming Associates, is employed to assure that the RNG used by the site is secure, reliable and truly random.

A truly RNG can use any old common algorithm to shuffle the cards. There's nothing complicated about it, nor does it have to be. The secret to security is the SEED. A RNG seed is just a starting number inserted into the algorithm. Different seeds produce different outcomes. Most of the sites, if not all, use a non-deterministic method of producing the seed. This number is generated by using some unpredictable physical source that is beyond human control. For instance, Ultimate Bet uses thermal noise. Full Tilt uses a quantum random bitstream.

Also, unlike a real deck of cards, virtual decks are not pre-set. They are shuffled continuously which means that Each card is selected just as it is to be dealt. Rabbit hunting on-line is meaningless.

Gotta go. Time to put the kids to bed.

Four Dogs said:

Also, unlike a real deck of cards, virtual decks are not pre-set. They are shuffled continuously which means that Each card is selected just as it is to be dealt. Rabbit hunting on-line is meaningless.

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Do you know if this holds true for every major site? It's something I did not know... good post.

Four Dogs said:

Also, unlike a real deck of cards, virtual decks are not pre-set. They are shuffled continuously which means that Each card is selected just as it is to be dealt. Rabbit hunting on-line is meaningless.

Click to expand...

Really? Here's the info from the PKR website (relevant bits in red):

Random Number Generator (RNG)
At PKR.com we consider the fairness of our site and the games we offer to be of utmost importance. We have invested a considerable amount of time and effort to ensure that the shuffling algorithm is completely random and unpredictable.
The Shuffling Algorithm
For each hand of poker, we shuffle the entire deck before any cards are dealt. This is achieved as follows:
We create an array with each of the 52 cards in order (2c, 2d, 2h, 2s, 3c... ... Ah, As). We then use the RNG to assign 32-bit random numbers (from 0 to 4,294,967,295) to each card. We then sort the array in increasing order using the number assigned to each card, generating a random permutation of the order of cards in the deck.
It is possible for more than one card to be assigned the same number, although this happens less than one time in a million. In this case, we simply throw away the deck and start again.
The poker logic then deals cards from this array, starting from the first card, as required by the poker logic (eg 2 cards to each player one at a time for hold’em, 3 for the flop, the turn and river cards – we don’t burn cards as there’s no chance of a user accidentally seeing an un-dealt card, and it makes no difference to the randomness of the shuffle).
The Random Number Generator
We use the Mersenne Twister(MT) algorithm to generate random numbers. This algorithm is detailed on the web site of its creators, here.
We use this algorithm to generate our random numbers. MT is extremely fast, has statistically proven very random output (including passing the “Die Hard” test), a period of 2^19937 (approximately 10^6000), and can be seeded by a 19968 bit key.
Seeding the RNG
The RNG is regularly seeded using Microsoft’s Windows Cryptographic API. This service provides random numbers using the entropy naturally present in the physical server machines.

And lest we not forget that there are some sites that do in fact burn cards in the deal after pre-setting the deck randomly. It really just comes down to the individual site and/or the underlying network.

Most sites I am familiar with determine the seed from the players themselves. eg the seed is created by the first player to act on the previous hand. You obviously have no control over this, because we are talking v.v.v.v small time units, but essentially at the time the player makes their decision, the seed is created.

From this it is a very simple matter of attributing all 52 cards in an order based on this seed. Then dealing as if it were a real deck.

If you think of the alternative (creating a seed for every card in turn) then obviously this would only needlessly tie up processer speed, and hence I am not aware of any site that does this.

I have the strong impression (and I`d be interested to know whether others agree) that if you play a lot you can feel the difference between sites` RNGs.

Most sites are pretty neutral, but there are some which I think of as either "bright" or "dull".

At a bright site, the deal seems to include a higher proportion of high cards, and there tend to be more multiway pots.

At a dull one, there are fewer big cards and more pots won with a lowly pair, or with Ace-high.

Of course, the differences are very slight and you really do need to play thousands of hands to pick it up.

Welly said:

If you think of the alternative (creating a seed for every card in turn) then obviously this would only needlessly tie up processer speed, and hence I am not aware of any site that does this.

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How much do you know about this Welly? Are you aware of any sites that don't do this. I can assure you that at least the 2 that I researched for my post claim to do just that. With CPU's now clocking up to 25 GIPS I'm not sure that processor speed is much of a consideration.

It was just from a random selection of 8 sites. Each either stated specifically that all cards were assigned pre-deal (places like party poker for example), or didnt state it specifically. None I came accross specifically stated it was for each card.

i suppose with processing speed (which i am certainly no expert on ) I guess if it were per card then it would be (for example) :-

25 times * 10,000 hands per minute = 250,000

I suppose that is 10,000 vs 250,000 per minute that a processer would need to go through the generation and cross-check process.

But like i say.....i know nothing about those pesky computer things ....but i stick by my statement that it would be needless to create a seed for each card.