question about a home game

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phildouglas

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hey my first post here. i just needed some opinions me and the same group of friends play poker a couple nights a week and we had something happen and nobody knew what to call it... tournament style game. three of us left basically i missed my flush on the river 3 of us in the hand. check check now the action is on me i bet 4k into a pot off about 26k guy to my right folds next player takes one card and shows me he hit mid pair. throws the card ontop the flop. and is holding the other card in mocking position so i say to my friend i bluffed him again. and mock my cards. my friend who still has one in his hands says he threw one card but never said fold. so he should take down the hand after about 10 mins of trying to figure it out the person who owns the house we lived in said "house rules" that i lost !!! please give me some feedback on if this was a right or wrong ruling
 
runnerx289

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It depends on the tournament rules for example in most live cash games you watch on tv occasionally a player will show one of his cards to try get reads off his opponents all though it is technically allowed it is frowned apon and deemed unethical.

on the other hand in tounament play (which i assume is what you were playing) it is not allowed generally but again depends on the tournament hosts ruling which should be supplyied before play starts, it is not allowed in the wsop main because it stops players from angle shooting.

however in your case as i doubt that rules were set before you started playing you should have one the pot. the way you describe it it defonatly looked like a fold especially because he threw it on top of the community cards. so basicallt im on your side lol ;p.

hope this helps
 
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First off in a house game, if the host makes a ruling, then regardless of withir its good or bad, accept it and move on, its his house and his game.

Secondly, you are not playing "gotchya" you are playing poker, half showing hands and daft stuff like showing one card isnt how its played and as a pokerplayer it is up to you to protect yourself and your action. Simply ask at the river "Is that a call ?"
 
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gotchips

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well if he never said fold i think he should win i always ask if their folding if they just throw thier cards on the table before i show/say anything..
 
MediaBLITZ

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Your description is very hard to follow and doesn't paint much of a picture, but (trying to fill in blanks) it sounds like you mucked and he did not. He showed down and you didn't.

But try describing exactly what happened after the river card hit - none of that other crap matters - because according to what I am reading the river hit and he immediately flipped a card over - no action whatsoever - but that can't be right - is it?
 
dirtyoldog

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ya you mucked it cause you knew you were beat his trick worked without even putting his money in live and learn you were suckered
 
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TIMNILES44

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If the cards hit the mock pile its a mock for either player one card or not ! Dont have to say anything , sounds like easy players to beat can I play Lol!
 
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phildouglas

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Your description is very hard to follow and doesn't paint much of a picture, but (trying to fill in blanks) it sounds like you mucked and he did not. He showed down and you didn't.

But try describing exactly what happened after the river card hit - none of that other crap matters - because according to what I am reading the river hit and he immediately flipped a card over - no action whatsoever - but that can't be right - is it?

i was dealer 3-handed first to act checked then he ( guy who would flip card) would also check. so i bet 4k first to act folded. then next to act after debating for about a min threw one card on top of the flop ( which i consider a muck )to show he hit mid pair. had his other card in muck position so i mucked my cards and said to my friend i bluffed him again and threw my cards into the muck. but he claimed he never said fold and still had one card in his hand. after a debate house rules awarded him the pot.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Well, if a card hits the community cards, muck, whatever, that would be an automatic muck at any cardroom.

However, this is a home game. If the home-owner awards the guy the pot because you mucked, that's it. House rules.

This is no kind of home game I would want to play. If that guy did that at the casino, or any reputable card room, it would be an AUTOMATIC muck.

I would have kept my cards and asked the guy if he is folding or calling. I would never return to that home game, seems a little stupid to me.
 
Sephiroth

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any time you through 1 card into the flop or muck you folded, you have to show both cards, sounds like to me the house owner was playing favourites.
 
WVHillbilly

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Well, if a card hits the community cards, muck, whatever, that would be an automatic muck at any cardroom.

However, this is a home game. If the home-owner awards the guy the pot because you mucked, that's it. House rules.

This is no kind of home game I would want to play. If that guy did that at the casino, or any reputable card room, it would be an AUTOMATIC muck.

I would have kept my cards and asked the guy if he is folding or calling. I would never return to that home game, seems a little stupid to me.
This is not really true. If the card can be easily identified it can be retrieved from the muck. In this case it was face up which makes it still live until the player releases his other card and the hand is clearly over. Sorry OP. Shut your mouth next time and hold your cards until after the hand is ALL THE WAY over.
 
Beanfacekilla

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This is not really true. If the card can be easily identified it can be retrieved from the muck. In this case it was face up which makes it still live until the player releases his other card and the hand is clearly over. Sorry OP. Shut your mouth next time and hold your cards until after the hand is ALL THE WAY over.

Yes I guess you have a point there. If he tossed them with the community cards, I guess it's not a muck.

But recently (side note), I thought one of the card rooms (I think motor city) made a rule against showing one card - even HU. I could be wrong though. I hardly ever see anyone do this.

OP should have held on to his cards for sure, until villain called or folded. Never assume....
 
WVHillbilly

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Yes I guess you have a point there. If he tossed them with the community cards, I guess it's not a muck.

But recently (side note), I thought one of the card rooms (I think motor city) made a rule against showing one card - even HU. I could be wrong though. I hardly ever see anyone do this.

OP should have held on to his cards for sure, until villain called or folded. Never assume....
You're right that he has to show both cards to win BUT since he still held the other card he certainly could argue he was going to do that (and call) as soon as he saw OPs reaction to his middle pair.
 
Beanfacekilla

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You're right that he has to show both cards to win BUT since he still held the other card he certainly could argue he was going to do that (and call) as soon as he saw OPs reaction to his middle pair.

So villain pretty much totally punked the OP.

Oh well. Live and learn.
 
WVHillbilly

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No. OP punked himself. All he had to do was wait a few more seconds before collecting his chips and THEN opening his mouth.
 
MediaBLITZ

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i was dealer 3-handed first to act checked then he ( guy who would flip card) would also check. so i bet 4k first to act folded. then next to act after debating for about a min threw one card on top of the flop ( which i consider a muck )to show he hit mid pair. had his other card in muck position so i mucked my cards and said to my friend i bluffed him again and threw my cards into the muck. but he claimed he never said fold and still had one card in his hand. after a debate house rules awarded him the pot.

Again, hard to follow - but are you saying you bet $4k on the river and he did NOT call, just flipped a card over onto the board (not the muck) and then you mucked?
 
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phildouglas

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Quote:
Originally Posted by phildouglas
i was dealer 3-handed first to act checked then he ( guy who would flip card) would also check. so i bet 4k first to act folded. then next to act after debating for about a min threw one card on top of the flop ( which i consider a muck )to show he hit mid pair. had his other card in muck position so i mucked my cards and said to my friend i bluffed him again and threw my cards into the muck. but he claimed he never said fold and still had one card in his hand. after a debate house rules awarded him the pot.
Again, hard to follow - but are you saying you bet $4k on the river and he did NOT call, just flipped a card over onto the board (not the muck) and then you mucked?

well yes but after flipping over the exposed card he paused for about 3 mins and with the other card in muck position I assumed that was a fold. I was at the casino once and learned my lesson I had the winning hand face down and put the cards over the line while thinking and the dealer instantly took my cards and said any cards over the line and not Infront of you is a muck. And I lost the hand so I understand alot the house game vs casino rules but poker is poker shouldn't it always be played by the same rules?? When I go play basketball with my friends we don't change the rules. I just don't get it
 
MediaBLITZ

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well yes but after flipping over the exposed card he paused for about 3 mins and with the other card in muck position I assumed that was a fold. I was at the casino once and learned my lesson I had the winning hand face down and put the cards over the line while thinking and the dealer instantly took my cards and said any cards over the line and not Infront of you is a muck. And I lost the hand so I understand alot the house game vs casino rules but poker is poker shouldn't it always be played by the same rules?? When I go play basketball with my friends we don't change the rules. I just don't get it

If only... but the answer is no. About the only continuity you can count on with playing poker poker from place to place is Ace is high and a Full House beats a flush - after that it gets all screwy as to what procedures they will follow.
And wow - is this guy a friend of yours? You got out slicked.
 
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dragonflyamb

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3 minutes is a long time in a poker tournament. I don't think the situation was handled well all around, but you could have easily protected your hand and the pot by Asking him whether he was folding or calling before doing anything with your cards.
 
OzExorcist

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Been pretty comprehensively answered above - you could quote Robert's Rules or the TDA rules or whatever you like until you're blue in the face, in a home game, house rules trump everything else and you've got to either respect the house's decision or find a new game.

Even if this had've happened in a casino though your opponent almost certainly would have been awarded the pot. Depending on the house rules in the card room he may or may not have been given a penalty for exposing his hand prematurely or trying to angle shoot (after all, he doesn't know he's got the winning hand when he turns his card up - I'm guessing he did it to try to get a reaction out of you, and if you did something like turn your hand up and it was best he'd claim he was folding). Simply exposing his hand prematurely, and even tossing his cards near the board cards, is never going to be grounds for actually killing his hand.

If they could still be identified then I expect your cards could be resurrected from the muck, since you mucked based on faulty information, but since you had the losing hand anyway that's not going to change anything.

Yes I guess you have a point there. If he tossed them with the community cards, I guess it's not a muck.

But recently (side note), I thought one of the card rooms (I think motor city) made a rule against showing one card - even HU. I could be wrong though. I hardly ever see anyone do this.

OP should have held on to his cards for sure, until villain called or folded. Never assume....

That "can't show one card" rule is a reasonably common one - definitely in tournament play, and even in cash games in some card rooms.
 
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RiverOfDreamz

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3 minutes - really?

well yes but after flipping over the exposed card he paused for about 3 mins and with the other card in muck position I assumed that was a fold.

So he held his one card for 3 minutes, after which you decided to throw your hand into the muck? That's how I'm reading your post. If so, after 3 minutes why didn't you ask him if he was going to show his card already. I can't imagine sitting around for 3 minutes watching somebody hold one card.:confused:
 
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