Prefer AA or KK allin vs 88? :)

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Akorps

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Hold'em Simulation
1,712,304 trials (Exhaustive)
ks kh 80.20% 1,370,776 5,130
8d 8c 19.80% 336,398 5,130


Hold'em Simulation
1,712,304 trials (Exhaustive)
as ah 79.80% 1,364,288 4,370
8d 8c 20.20% 343,646 4,370



A board with 9,T,J,Q (no K or flush) wins for 88 vs AA, but loses for 88 vs KK
 
zegaum

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Pre flop AA will always seer better than KK, even against 88 ...
This a simulation must also take into account the possibility of hitting TJQK where no flush, AA continues to bring ...
 
loafes

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Pre flop AA will always seer better than KK, even against 88 ...
This a simulation must also take into account the possibility of hitting TJQK where no flush, AA continues to bring ...
But AA doesnt need to make a straight here to win. whereas with KK there is an extra situation where the KK wins

quite an interesting concept
 
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not sure I'm ever worrying about the lost 0.4% equity - just happy with either against any hand
 
sam1chips

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But a board of KQJT8 would have AA>88, but 88>KK
 
loafes

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But a board of KQJT8 would have AA>88, but 88>KK

I may be mistaken, but I thought a set of KKs would beat a set of 88s

Maybe you just have the symbals around the wrong way. AA>88 indicates that AA would beat 88 obviously thats untrue on that board same story with the 88vsKK
 
Michael Paler

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So, if you knew the guy had 88, you would be more willing to fold AA, more willing to play the KK?

Sorry, not sure what you are getting at here. You more worry about sets than 4 card st8's anyway, right? In which case, it does not matter if the guy has ANY pair less than your AA or KK, does it? And 4 card st8's are long shots, even when you make them.

That being said, If I have AA or KK, I would be more concerned by a guy holding 7-8 suited or 8-9 suited, as it is a far better hand against AA or KK; he could flop a st8, a flush (hope you got the 4 card flush draw with your aces or kings), two pair (nice full house draw), or one set (and another nice full house draw plus a long shot draw to quads!). Could flop an open ender (5-6/9-10/6-9 for 7-8) or (6-7/J-10/7-10 for 8-9). Suited, this could be a open ended st8 flush draw. Nope, if I see my AA or KK against 88, I am a happy camper. When I see that a small suited connector has called my AA or KK is when my you-know-what slams shut...

So on the flip side, if I am short stacked and have to shove into a possible AA or KK, I want it to be a small suited connector. Still, many will gladly take 88 and call an all in with it preflop. You can then lose to any higher pair or any two overcards that connect with the board. You can also get boned with 88 if the board double pairs higher (say 9-9-10-10-2, and the guy has J/Q/K/A-x), counterfeiting your 88 hand. Worse, with a 9 and a ten on a flop, lots of weak players will chase, you guessed it, the 4-card st8! Wish them luck with that, lol.
 
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josealejocl

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Mmm, that's virtually the same. I think the difference is that eventually the Kings can connect an OESD and the Aces don't. The Aces can connect two different straights but separately, then i think that is the difference, and that is probably the very small advantaje that shows the stats.

In favor of the Aces is the scary card, but is also for the eights. I think one can not overvalue the Aces here. Yes, is the best starting hand and that is because don't need another card to improve and if the another hand doesn't do it then the Aces will win. But in this case the kings have the same value (are a major pair) and a little little little advantaje for the open straight. I don't say the kings be the best starting hand (it looses with the Aces logically) but maybe in this hand be practically the same. Practically there is not differences, the two are major PP.
 
BigCountryAA

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Either would be fine.
 
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Riverup16

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Guess this makes qq a stronger hand against 77 then KK... And jj a stronger hand against 66... And so on and so forth? The logic makes sense... But I'll take aces over any of these regardless... Because if the guy has 99... I'm getting the idea that AA is MUCH stronger then KK... And thats where the problem lies
 
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heAdstroMan

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take AA every time!
 
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HooDooKoo

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take AA every time!

Sorry, but you guys are all wrong about this. AA is NOT the best hand against every pair of cards out there. For instance, if your opponent is playing 87 then you'd rather have pocket 8s against him than pocket aces. You still make many of the straights he makes and he cannot beat you with two pair (the hand that most commonly beats pocket aces). Plug it into any poker calculator and you'll see that I'm right.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't rather have aces sitting at the table (since I can't see my opponent's hands), but once the cards are flipped over I'd rather have 88 if my opponent has 87.

Best of luck.

-HooDooKoo
 
Michael Paler

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Sorry, but you guys are all wrong about this. AA is NOT the best hand against every pair of cards out there. For instance, if your opponent is playing 87 then you'd rather have pocket 8s against him than pocket aces. You still make many of the straights he makes and he cannot beat you with two pair (the hand that most commonly beats pocket aces). Plug it into any poker calculator and you'll see that I'm right.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't rather have aces sitting at the table (since I can't see my opponent's hands), but once the cards are flipped over I'd rather have 88 if my opponent has 87.

Best of luck.

-HooDooKoo

You are right on target; AA and KK are highly overrated. Like any pair, it's only one pair. It needs improvement, like they all do before going to town. That is why I would rather be holding a SSC facing those pairs. Far greater options.

One big mistake I often see is shoving with KK early in an MTT. That is when the weakest players are abundant and likely to call with ANY ace at all. Then they get a lucky flop, turn, or river, and it's over for KK. Early, it's better to see a flop with KK before going nuke, IMO.
 
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You are right on target; AA and KK are highly overrated. Like any pair, it's only one pair. It needs improvement, like they all do before going to town. That is why I would rather be holding a SSC facing those pairs. Far greater options.

One big mistake I often see is shoving with KK early in an MTT. That is when the weakest players are abundant and likely to call with ANY ace at all. Then they get a lucky flop, turn, or river, and it's over for KK. Early, it's better to see a flop with KK before going nuke, IMO.

Shoving preflop early in an MTT with KK is a perfectly good strategy. Most times you're over a 70% favorite. Those don't grow on trees.

-HooDooKoo
 
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DirtyTommyD

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I feel the KK would open more straight ops. But I could be wrong. Interesting question.
 
jhonihgrass

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Man, AA surely!
 
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HooDooKoo

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Man, AA surely!

Why don't you all, instead of guessing, put the two hands into a poker calculator and try to learn something? :)

KK is EVER-SO-SLIGHTLY more likely to win against 88 than AA is because when the board is QJT9, the K-high straight beats the "ass-end" straight. AA doesn't make any straights that 88 makes, so KK is preferable.

This information is only valuable in theory, because at the tables you don't know that your opponent has 88 (and it's not like you'd complain in either case).
 
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matiusaa

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I think that the question, or the point of the question doesn't infere on the answer. Maybe KK has a bit more equity against 88 than AA would have against 88. But I would play both, since they both have extremely good equity against 88.
 
Michael Paler

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Shoving preflop early in an MTT with KK is a perfectly good strategy. Most times you're over a 70% favorite. Those don't grow on trees.

-HooDooKoo

Seriously? Did you not read what I said? Donks with any ace will call early in the MTT. I see KK go down in flames all the time after being shoved preflop to some loon calling with ace rag. And I do mean rag. See many go out with kicker trouble as well. You may be a 70% favorite, but that is in an ideal situation. Heavy concentrations of calling stations are not part of that 70% figure.

Do what you want, It's just sad to see that happen.
 
bezobrazny

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The best cure for pair of 8's is the pair of Q's. :)
 
wagon596

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I would think KK would be a small % better than AA against 88.
 
jordanbillie

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You are right on target; AA and KK are highly overrated. Like any pair, it's only one pair. It needs improvement, like they all do before going to town. That is why I would rather be holding a SSC facing those pairs. Far greater options.

One big mistake I often see is shoving with KK early in an MTT. That is when the weakest players are abundant and likely to call with ANY ace at all. Then they get a lucky flop, turn, or river, and it's over for KK. Early, it's better to see a flop with KK before going nuke, IMO.

Love the argument that it's only one pair. Along the same lines as the "AK is a drawing hand" argument. Or the mantra, "Aces either win you a small pot or lose you a big one!"

Priceless.
 
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Seriously? Did you not read what I said? Donks with any ace will call early in the MTT. I see KK go down in flames all the time after being shoved preflop to some loon calling with ace rag. And I do mean rag. See many go out with kicker trouble as well. You may be a 70% favorite, but that is in an ideal situation. Heavy concentrations of calling stations are not part of that 70% figure.

Do what you want, It's just sad to see that happen.

I'm not really an MTT player, so it doesn't much matter. But there aren't a lot of spots in poker where you can get all your chips in AND GET CALLED as a 70% favorite --- so I'll take my chances preflop with cowboys.

Thanks.

-HooDoo
 
dmorris68

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Seriously? Did you not read what I said? Donks with any ace will call early in the MTT. I see KK go down in flames all the time after being shoved preflop to some loon calling with ace rag. And I do mean rag. See many go out with kicker trouble as well. You may be a 70% favorite, but that is in an ideal situation. Heavy concentrations of calling stations are not part of that 70% figure.

Do what you want, It's just sad to see that happen.
I know this will be a bitter pill for you to swallow, because you can *never* admit when you're wrong, but you're WAY wrong here. This is almost as bad as the people who argue folding AA preflop in a multi-way pot.

If you're not willing to ship KK preflop at any stage of a regular MTT, then you're making a huge mistake. To even attempt to argue otherwise says you really don't have a grasp on hand equities and long term results. I would have to have a soul read of the deepest caliber -- basically someone with 0% PFR after 200 hands or something -- to not be willing to get AIPF with KK.

Obviously non-standard spots like satty/DON bubbles or multi-million dollar pay jump bubbles may dictate you fold 100% of hands, but that's not what you implied here.
 
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