Spaceman
Legend
Silver Level
Your post could be used as an example of what a quality post means for newbies! :icon_salu
However, I think he is just talking about preflop play, specifically stealing the blinds from the button.
On that matter, I can say that its an interesting thread. He have a point, since blinds will try to re-steal more when steal attempt is coming from the button. But what about those times that you try to steal the blinds from mid position and some guy from late position shoves trying to either steal the blinds and the bet or because he have a hand?
If the truly question of this thread is, "is it more profitable trying to steal from the button or elsewhere?"
I'd say any late position will do in the long run but the best thing would be definately to mix things. But I cant say I've never seen some pro's trying to steal with crappy hands from utg.
Kenzie 96
Legend
Loyaler
JobyPoker
Enthusiast
Silver Level
You guys are missing the big picture here.. everyone plays the same way, you’re all predictable. You’re all exploitable by over-valuing C bets with position. I’m not stating position can’t be used as a tool. As some of you’ve explained it definetly can have its advantages, however I’m more of the lines stating how people play less than desirable hands just because they think position is key. Now let me make this clear, if you’re playing against players who lack the knowledge/skill to understand position in the first place then I’d 100% agree with you. However the whole debate I’m making is position is being played incorrectly. ALSO start trying to exploit players who try to overbet and play bad hands because they’re the last to act.
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gabethegimp
Rock Star
Silver Level
I have a feeling this is one of those "you can lead a horse to water" type situations.
The math doesn't lie. You honestly think you're the first person in the history of poker to think that the button is "exploitable due to predictability". If any player is allowing somebody to exploit them from the button repeatedly, then they deserve to loose their money because they're just being outplayed.
If anybody is "over-valuing c-bets with position", then they also deserve to lose their money.
Just wait until you get away from freerolls and into some torny's or games where there is something very real on the line. This "hole" that you think you've found in the fundamental theory of poker quickly gets slammed shut as you're sent to the cage wondering why you're mid position over play got caught when you were "sure they had nothing because they were in position - cause everybody plays rags there."
The math doesn't lie. You honestly think you're the first person in the history of poker to think that the button is "exploitable due to predictability". If any player is allowing somebody to exploit them from the button repeatedly, then they deserve to loose their money because they're just being outplayed.
If anybody is "over-valuing c-bets with position", then they also deserve to lose their money.
Just wait until you get away from freerolls and into some torny's or games where there is something very real on the line. This "hole" that you think you've found in the fundamental theory of poker quickly gets slammed shut as you're sent to the cage wondering why you're mid position over play got caught when you were "sure they had nothing because they were in position - cause everybody plays rags there."
JobyPoker
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I’ve played a ton of fundamental poker, and I fully understand all the benefits that come with position. What I’m saying though is a very high majority of poker players abuse positioning making it exploitable in general. Im not saying you can’t use position as a valuable tool yourself. Or that you should donk all your chips to position. I’ve played against old timers that like to put out C bets and I’ve noticed a large portion will fold to a check reraise.
kraemer
Visionary
Silver Level
Hhhhmmmm.....
Even if You were right then position would still be important.
Only now You are looking for a different position as the best one...
I think late position will always remain the favorable one because You
can act with more information at hand then your opponents. This is always
an advantage.
Have You considered that though almost any player knows the "position is king"
mantra many people do NOT act on it ? I think a lot of times your in position
bets get called because your opponents do not think about position at all and not
because they suppose you are trying to make an in position steal...
Even if You were right then position would still be important.
Only now You are looking for a different position as the best one...
I think late position will always remain the favorable one because You
can act with more information at hand then your opponents. This is always
an advantage.
Have You considered that though almost any player knows the "position is king"
mantra many people do NOT act on it ? I think a lot of times your in position
bets get called because your opponents do not think about position at all and not
because they suppose you are trying to make an in position steal...
Eric Salvador
Visionary
Silver Level
If your in position and don't understand betting patterns, table image and ranges, yeah you're right it isn't as helpful. But even without knowing any of that, you still should be able to win more when in position then out of position. I would recommend that you study more away from the table. If you don't take advantage of position you'll struggle to be a successful player.
NCDaddy
Visionary
Silver Level
I have seen more players raising junk hands UTG as if they were OTB the last few months. I think original poster has a point but may have presented it wrong. It's not that position is over-rated. It's not. Position is still one of the most important aspects of poker. I just think that players are utilizing that "common knowledge" and attempting to exploit it. Which means, if you're in position and you see more frequent UTG raising, you should be 3 and 4 betting more often.
MikeCarasone
Legend
Platinum Level
Acting last gives you the most knowledge. Knowing what everyone has done gives you a lot of valuable information. Position play is key to winning some important pots. Gives you the ability to make plays that you may not have executed in leadoff spot, or tells you to slow down in a pot that your mid pair is obviously beaten. I would much rather be in position than not.
Kingpoetmusic
Rock Star
Silver Level
Poker is a game of information. Acting last gives you a chance to see what your dealing with. I like picking up big hands last to act, blinds, dealer position...etc.
Also if you can read the board right on the flop you can bet people off the hand. Maybe play the ace or high card that is out there. This is a good opportunity to represent a strong hand or a good hit on a flop. Having a hand in the blinds are the most scariest thing. You could either win a big pot or lose all your chips. But getting a big hand in the last positions is good. You know where you are at in the hand by the time the action comes to you.
Also if you can read the board right on the flop you can bet people off the hand. Maybe play the ace or high card that is out there. This is a good opportunity to represent a strong hand or a good hit on a flop. Having a hand in the blinds are the most scariest thing. You could either win a big pot or lose all your chips. But getting a big hand in the last positions is good. You know where you are at in the hand by the time the action comes to you.
Filip Krstevski
Rock Star
Silver Level
Making a right decision in poker is everything to be honest. Position is all about to obtain more information before making a decision. Every position has a different story. Learning how to use the position is advantage, but not everything.
Nathan Williams
Poker Pro
Silver Level
If you use any sort of tracking program to find your winnings by position, the actual data shows again and again that position is massively important in poker. You can try to fight the math, but you will always lose in the end.
guccipix
Rock Star
Silver Level
I get what you're saying but mostly disagree. Sometimes yeah position isn't TOO big of a deal post flop, but I think studying pre-flop position decision making is one of the most important things for an up and comer. Folding hands like KTo from weak position will save you a lot of chips in the long run.
