Position is over-rated

Literally any average poker player or even bad poker player knows that using position is a supposed advantage in poker. Poker isn't the same as it used to be though, and considering how everyone knows this, position has lost a lot of its betting power. Checking with strong hands is much stronger now that everyone tries betting with position to steal blinds/ steal the pot. I'd suggest only betting with good hands in position, as it will actually look weaker. Start trying to bluff from mid position instead, seems a lot stronger.

I don't agree position can win you blinds even with less the ideal hands also if your one of the last to act its nice knowing what everyone to your right is saying about their had and if its worth folding even a mid pocket pair.. However playing in rebuy tournaments and sit and goes can be a different story since more people will call and or push since they won't be out of the game if its the wrong move.

Position will always be a very powerful piece to poker.

Information is power and you have the most information in later positions. You need to use position along with villain types, stack sized, ranges, board textures, etc..

Position allows you to gain a huge amount of information, even as games get tougher over time. The power of being able to see your opponent’s move before you make a decision is extremely important, even in games between good players.

yea I always find it easier playing hands OOP, at the mercy of the IP player to do whatever they want to me they second I put anything in the pot. Brillant thread

agree with you ... I think that waiting for good hands and position is already in the background .. as poker became a frenzy many players play with the so-called variance to what I would call trash hands .. or ungrateful people ha ha ... but good sometimes it's better to be aggressive and try to change the method

Someone once commented that the new button position bet was UTG now

position

Try calling with more hands on the button and fire a bet when it is checked to you .You will be be surprised at how often you will win the pot even with a small bet.

Okay so the strength of betting in position is the only advantage you get from it? Okay lets start this.

1 - It allows you to act last. The information you can gather in this position and the advantages it can create for you are huge. Esp if you have a weaker player in the pot.
2 - You can escape hands without investment, where if you were earlier you could've been put into a position where you invested too much and now you have to play it out.
3 - You have more options as far as how you play your hand.
4 - Your strength can be hidden easily
5 - You can bully and steal just based on your position alone, irrelevant of your cards and stack size or what street the action is on. Because your range is larger people have to worry about hands they wouldn't usually expect, it's the bad players that'll just because "you have the round thing in front of you". If the flop comes rags and the guy out of position has q/j or something, you could've hit, and that person knows that. He's now on a draw and is now scared that you have him dominated. They might call you down one more street, but you can take it there if they don't spike, purely because of your position.
6 - Position isn't all about the preflop play.

Also - it's a good think to look weaker in position but to also play your range in that position, there is a reason why it's powerful and there is proven math to support it, hell, even the psychological side of it is "proven".

I would've rephrased how you started this thread and stated something more along the lines of, "Do you guys view the button the same way as I do?" or "should I swap up my play a bit and play a bit more aggressively middle with rags". You would get more constructive feedback.

To answer those questions, first one, already answered it with a short list. As for the other one. Yes you should play more aggressively in middle or early from time to time, mixins are important, even if you get busted in a bluff you can use that looser image later and cash in.

But in no way is the button weak or have the fundamentals of the game changed because the player base understands that position has a wider range and bluffing potential. Go to the next level, mix up your game and remember, sometimes donating for image is a good play. I'd be more worried about the seat you drew and who's sitting on your direct left +2.

This is also all the more important in live play. People in live games will pick up on you changing gears and mixing up your range for no logical reason and exploit you when you're the one thinking you're outplaying them. See it happen all the time from casinos to home games.

The button is not only for aggression. You are the last to act. If everyone checks, you can check too and see another card. Everyone could think your weak and bet into you on the turn after you hit your nut flush.

I have to disagree. Position is king. Understanding when and when not to use your position to take down a pot with a semi-bluff or pure bluff takes some study and practice.

If anyone can show that they have managed to win at a higher rate in cash games UTG than on the button over a large sample using PokerTracker or a similar software then I’d be incredibly surprised. I really don’t think that the people saying that position is overrated have a valid argument.

I agree to an extent but trust me, most bad players do not even think about position. Some may be aware of it but it's not really a major part of their thought process.

I disagree. I think position is immensely powerful. Sure you can get check raised when betting, but the frequency of this occuring should typically be low (and if not you know they will likely be doing it with air at times). You have more information when placing your bets that it becomes so much more valuable.

My opinion, positional play is a must in poker. The problem is when you play with opposition that does not apply the positional rule. They will loose a lot, but can make it up on a lucky river. If you respect poker and the opposition, then you will play to the rules

Posistion

I have felt for sometime that position is one of a number of tools. The importance to me is that it serves as a tool that enables me to keep from getting trapped. What I mean is I have some knowledge in late position that I do not have in early. I grit my teeth when I have a reasonable hand and somebody afterwards goes all in after after I wagered a double/triple preflop bet late in the tournament. I am sure others have been in that same situation. Lots better seeing that happen before I bet. I can then have a choice of waiting for a better hand or call. It plays a big part for me to have that knowledge. With luck playing tricks on me as much as it does, I need as much information before making critical bets late in a tournament. That's just me. Good question. Good luck.

The idea of betting and playing position is not only to steal blinds it is as you are betting less people there higher odds they do not have as good a hand as you would be up against with 8 players behind you thus you can play a greater range of hands you rarely in history should of been bluffing 7 2 off the game is certainly changing and how you play from each position has changed as well just as 4 betting has become far more popular but the advantage of position will never change because you will always get the most knowledge of what your opponents do by having position on them

If you only bet with good hands in position, you won't have a balanced range and will be too predictable. Every time you bet when you're in position, your opponents will fold. That's not what you want if you're only betting with big hands.

If you bluff too much in other positions, you will also be predictable and you'll often be bluffing into big hands.

Having position will ALWAYS be an advantage. Here are just some of the advantages of having position:

-Get a sense for what your opponents are holding based on how they react (call or raise) to your bet if the hand is checked over to you.
-Can choose to see a free turn card if hand is checked over to you. If you aren't in position, you can't guarantee the players behind you will check.
-Easiest position to bluff in.
-Pot control. If you have the type of hand that could win at showdown but isn't super strong, you'll often be able to dictate the size of the pot in position. This is a huge advantage.

Like it

I do like position as most people do. But, I don't think it is as important as they say.

totally and fully disagree

This is not debatable you are wrong, position is not powerful because you can steal more pots it is because you are able to obtain more information before making a decision which in turn leads to better decisions which in turn leads to more profit. I guarantee if you run stats on any players database where they have decent they will win most from the button because of this

Don't think we will ever see position not being a plus in poker. It can be a great advantage for mediocre hands played correctly.

When it comes to Holdem, and the Evaluation of the game. I would say in some cases there is legitimacy to that. For example a full ring game with all LAG rec players, where there is 3-5 people in every pot. 20% of hands are 3bet by late possition, or by the blinds. Chances are, getting it in early with a Axs is gonna be a hand that has a chance (in a none 3bet pot). Now are you probably playing fit or fold if you get to the flop, but if your first to act, and you flop top pair with a flush draw. Assuming the people you are playing aren't complete idiots. You just picked up a nice pot minimal effort and stress...

Now on the other hand your playing with a bunch of season vets, that see less then 20% of flops, and rarely see a EP raise. You can start your game (after you have seen a round or 2) Playing Out of possition the same way. Assuming they are folding to at least 60% of CBets. Until they catch on, and start 3Betting you. Then you better get back in line if you want to keep your stack.


Anything mixed with styles. Position does matter, and better off sticking to a standard positional range.


Now as for Mixed games like PLO, Hi/lo, and Razz. Without a doubt position matters. I believe these games are still 5-10 years behind to evaluation of holdem, and need to be played at the set standard at all times to be profitable. Rarely do you need to get out of line in these games to be profitable. From my experiences at least.