Poker Random Number Generator (RNG)

Can anyone explain in detail how this works? I read a while back that it has something to do with the clicks of your mouse? Like after everyone gets their hole cards - does the deck keep shuffling until its time to deal out the flop/turn/river? or after you get your hole cards are the board cards that are coming already determined like in a live game?

I'm not going to open up another page before typing my answer because I HATE laptop mousepads, but I believe the deck is continuously shuffled throughout the whole hand. I don't like the sound of it personally, since I prefer one shuffle then a hand being dealt, but I guess it would help prevent cheating if someone were able to access the RNG.

yes - I really don't like the sound of the deck being shuffled like that - it leaves a little too much to the imagination - and my imagination has been running on overtime here lately - I could see the point as doing that for security reasons - but - I still don't like the sound of it. Thanks for the reply!

Get a laptop mouse. They work great.

This makes absolutely no difference. The card is unknown to you until it is flipped over. Why do you care if it's also unknown to the computer until it's flipped over?

you can't use your spidey sense or physic abilities

^^^this.

Let me screw up your thinking even more. It has been almost a year since I read thru the rng scheme used by both FT and PS, and others, but the concept of a deck doesn't work like you might think.

During any hand all the cards in play must be unduplicated and fit within the definition of a deck. But the available cards (i.e. the 'deck') is continually shuffling, and get this, it contains as many cards as there are in play at any instant on the whole site!.

If the site is showing there are 5000 tables playing, then there are 5000 Aces of spades available at any instant for your table. If there is an Ace of spades already in play at your table, and the dealer picks one of the other 4999 Ace's of spades, it is discarded and another card is picked. The shuffle is done at a pace measured down in the quantum time realm.

For all but the most theoretical of physicists amongst us, the reading of the method, which doesn't even go into much detail, is a headache producing, mind boggling nightmare. Trust me, I read through it once, about a year ago, and still suffer the effects.

As long as the exact same card don't come up in all the shown cards,I could care less how it works.

It is curios that I can not find a great definition of the dealing methods currently in use. There is a description from UB/support/random number generator. I could not find anything about FT's current RNG. I have requested a link.

This is one of those things where we, the players, sort of have to just have faith that the sites are on top of this. Makes it tough on us agnostics.

It really only matters for the shoulda' coulda' woulda's out there. If you're the type of player who still 'cares' about the flop/turn/river after you've folded, this would kill you because you don't know exactly how the hand would have turned out. However, I look at it as though if I 'woulda' hit, I really wouldn't have hit because it would've been a different hand had I played.

What does kind of suck though is that when you/others play could change the next card(s) to be played. That's the only part I personally don't like is that even though it's "fair" that we all received the on the turn, that could have given someone else their str8/flush and messed my hand up. Whereas had I clicked "call/raise" a few seconds off than when I did, and we all (now) received the "fair" it may have completed my royal. Granted it all is supposed to come out even in the long run, but if that 1 card just finished off your stack, which may have finished off your BR... then the long run doesn't really matter.

Or we could gather hundreds of thousands (and more) hands and study to see if they conform to random distribution.

I would still feel better with one deck - shuffle - deal hole cards - flop/turn/river comes from original shuffle - would that be impossible to do or something? I actually emailed Poker Stars and asked the method they use - the email they sent back said that Poker Stars does the(1 shuffle) method - they did say that other Poker Sites use that shuffle/shuffle/shuffle/shuffle scenario - maybe some people have the shuffle/shuffle/shuffle method figured out and know when to click/click/click and catch that miracle 1/2/3/4 outter when needed.

Great info, thanks!

Why would you feel better? That way is more prone to hacking, not that pokerstars can be hacked. The point is, why do the methods matter, the deck should be treated like a black box by you. Does it matter if the cards are scattered and a dog picks one, you get to pick one from all of them facedown, or your opponent gets to do that? As long as each card has an equal probability of coming up next, who cares when the computer determines it? It's a black box until it comes up from your point of view. Anyone who has a problem with the continuous shuffle IMO doesn't understand the concept of random numbers or even playing poker in general. The only difference is that the RNG is run at a different time on pokerstars and the card that will come up in the future is stored on a computer somewhere. What's the difference to you whether the card is picked randomly on the turn or randomly preflop and stored somewhere to be retrieved on the term. From your point of view, every card has an equal chance of coming until it comes face up.

Also, the click/click/click thing is just silly. The RNG uses:
1. arithmetic, this is basically how most basic RNGs work. They are sufficiently random but anyone who gets a hold of the algorithm can sometimes figure out the seed and start predicting the numbers. Note that this takes someone more experienced in computers and how RNGs work than pretty much every casual online poker player.
2. Atmospheric Entropy. This is truly random from our POV. Basically this may be able to be predictable if we truly had all information about the universe. This concept is similar to the concept that we may be able to determine the weather in a year if we knew and could simulate everything. Note that this would include births and wing flaps of birds, and other such things that we cannot simulate with the current knowledge even if we had a complex enough computer and someone who got data on literally everything in the universe
3. User input. Unless you know the algorithm they use (ie they could use mouse coordinates, they could use number of clicks, they could use some combination, assigning values to keys and clicks and doing arithmetic on them, or any number of things) you wouldn't even be able to predict the card unless you knew the movement of all the other user's mice, clicks, and key presses as well. I'm pretty sure this also takes into account actions of people not even at your table, so it's possible that mouse click just dealt the royal flush to the winner of the Sunday Millions while you're sitting playing a 1c/2c game.

In short, if you think anyone can deal themselves a better hand by clicking a few times, you're an idiot. Of course that click could have given him aces instead of queens against your kings, but it also could have given him queens instead of aces. You don't know, it's RANDOM!

I'm sorry, I messed up on the last post. It wasn't atmospheric entropy, it was server entropy I think. So basically the heat given off by the server is part of the equation. I was thinking of the random.org RNG that uses atmospheric activity.

Why would it make me feel better? I ask - why wouldn't it make you feel better? I just would like to have the cards that are coming to come from an original shuffle - like in a real poker game - just call me old fashioned I guess - that would take some mystery out of those amazing rivers we have all seen time and time and time and time and time and time again - I am NOT getting into or saying Internet Poker is "rigged" - to me the word "rigged" is way to broad of a term to use - but - I have always suspected Poker Sites to use some methods to keep "newbs" "donks" "bad players" from losing their last dime they are playing on and leaving the Site for good - why? - here is the way I see it from a business standpoint - if most people were new players and deposited their hard earned money on a Poker Site - 1. do you think if they lost it in a matter of a day or so they would just dig back in their pocket and reload day after day after day? 2. do you think if a new player could get his win every now and then no matter how bad of a player they are would stick around for a while and play often? 3. How long would a Poker Site last if all newbs left for good soon after losing a decent amount of money? - this all may be my brain thinking too much - I dunno - but I would understand it perfectly from a business standpoint. Now onto a great example from my personal experience.

As a US customer my choices became slim as to what Sites I could play at - my 2 choices were Full Tilt or Poker Stars - I was actually very loyal to Full Tilt as a regualr player - but - when all the people started playing at Stars and the buy-ins became too cheap to pass up for the reward that could be won(MTT's) I had to migrate to Stars for a while and give it a shot - OK - when I left Full Tilt to go to Stars I had exactly $5.55 in my account - I played at Stars for about 6 months as a regular - I did not even in that time open up Full Tilt once - I stayed away from Full Tilt the whole 6 months or so - ok - I decided to head back to Full Tilt and play for a change of scenery after being away for 6 months - I log in - enter into a $5.50 buy-in MTT - had a whoppin 5 cents left over after the buy-in - during the tourny I was amazingly lucky - much more than I am used to - here are just a few of the hands that I can remember the best where I got some help from the turn/river to win the hand(and not get knocked out) the cards that I dont remember and dont matter I will use a ? 1. I had KQ vs AQ - flop- QQ3 - turn ? - got all the money in - river K - 2. I had 88 vs TT - flop 8T2 - turn 2 - got the money in - river 8 - 3. i had AKclubs vs TT - flop K Tclubs 8clubs - had to gamble on the flop or fold - turn ? - river ?Club - 4. I had AA vs 77 - i slow played from UTG with no raises - flop - 7 and two blanks that did not look dangerous - I made a bet on the flop and had to call a min raise - turn A - river ? - by the time I got to the final table I pretty much felt like I could not miss a hand if a tried - I felt I could play ATC and pretty much did - I ended up coming in 1st place - and won close to $600 - so my bankroll at Full Tilt was in good shape - and to be honest since that win I have been back playing as a full time regualr again - would I have stayed at Full Tilt after being gone for 6 months and down to 5 cents in my bankroll if I had gotten knocked out before coming in the money? would just cashing and even making the money have made me as happy as a 1st place finish? If you were the owner of an upcoming Poker Site would you like to have some methods you could rely on to keep people from going totally broke and more than likely leave the Site for good? - Again - I am NOT saying its "rigged" to cheat you out of your money - BUT - I do say and think there is something in the kool-aid to keep it sweet IMO.

Umm, claiming that it helps certain players in certain situations win *is* claiming it is rigged. What else does rigged mean?

I personally don't dislike the constant shuffle for "rigged" reasons. I dislike it because it's kind of like playing a hold em' slot machine instead. If you click at the wrong mili-second, you could change your own hand. I like it when they're preset from the deal. I know some say "it doesn't matter"... but it really does. If the hand is constantly changing, is it really equally "fair" to all players, or is it equally un-fair to all players? Deal the deck and give me what was dealt. If your system sucks so much that you're afraid of hackers, change your system. I think with the encryption these days it would have to be an inside job to pull it off anyway.

Would you go to a casino where the dealer continually shuffled after the deal? Shuffled after the flop/turn/river?

Absolutely, I'd have no problem playing poker with such a dealer. There is logically and mathematically no difference to the two methods. There is no such thing as equally unfair to all parties, that is impossible as well.

DJ.. reading this made me get the feeling i had after I saw the first matrix.

When I play two different tables at FT. I can't help but notice how often I get the same hole cards in in both games.

Happens a lot.

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