poker money vs living money

i've always wondered how poker pros live off of their poker winnings. i hear a lot about how you should never put money in that you are afraid to lose and such, but once you start winning, when should you cash out? (mostly referring to online poker here) i mean, if you play poker as your job and don't work somewhere else, you're going to need some of the money that you win at some point, so my question is, how do you balance trying to build a bankroll, with making enough money to pay bills and stuff? i'm not sure, but it seems like you would have to win a lot pretty consistently to be able to keep moving up while also paying rent. does anyone have experience with this?

So you've answered your own question - you make a living out of poker by having a substantial bankroll and being a consistent winner. Big bankroll is needed to help you survive downswings (you will not stop eating when you loose, will you? ), and winning will take care of everything else.

The pros do it by winning consistently over long periods and cashing out amounts that still leave a comfortable bankroll for the levels they play in their accounts.

How often you cash out, how much you cash out and how much constitutes a "comfortable" bankroll are entirely up to the individual though.

I don't think good bankroll management principles change a whole lot regardless of the level of play. That said, the majority of pros do not adhere to good bankroll management.

I read a Phil Gordon interview once in which he stated that about half the big-name players you see on TV have a negative net worth. I have no idea if he's right or not, but reading about some of these guys, I don't think it's particularly far-fetched.

Sysvr4 said:

I don't think good bankroll management principles change a whole lot regardless of the level of play. That said, the majority of pros do not adhere to good bankroll management.

I read a Phil Gordon interview once in which he stated that about half the big-name players you see on TV have a negative net worth. I have no idea if he's right or not, but reading about some of these guys, I don't think it's particularly far-fetched.

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This is because they've made a decision just like any small business owner does. I own a small tile installation company and my net worth right now is definitely in the negative. They've just made the decision to do what they are good at.

I watch alot of the online pros (the guys who run deep in the bigger buyins on Fulltilt) fairly often and was quite surprised to hear one day on a final table when two guys were HeadsUp and were considering a chop. The one guy's stats. showed his MTT profit at over $90,000 but he didn't have $2,300 in his account to send to the other guy. My guess is.. he takes out alot, lol. Also discovered though with this guy is that he is a 'bankroll assisted player' (and found out that ALOT of them are... in some of the large field, bigger buyin mtts on Fulltilt, there'll be guys who have action on a dozen or more players in it).

I think your question was already answered above in another's response here (it's a personal thing dependent upon the individual). I play merely for a hobby myself (but also play to win, lol) so I have no expertise on the topic although I've read some suggested advice in books written by poker pros (quote from Big Tony's book 'Tony Kaufman', if you win a substantial cash in a tournament, be sure to treat yourself right after it, ie. 'go on that trip', 'purchase that car',... "It's important to see some substantiated physical proof of your success...... then invest another portion of it in something solid (real estate) and then set yourself up with another 6mos. worth of buyins).

I hope to one day start playing some decent buyin mtts online so for now I don't have to concern myself too much with withdrawling any funds (although I do sell some FT bucks to friends on occassion... easier than doing a withdrawl). For online play, personally I think I'd want to have at least $10k prior to taking any money out, as I'd like to be rolled to play in $216 buyins one day (for now I'll stick to mostly the micros, lol).

GL on the tables!!

My husband is not a pro but we live off his poker winnings. It's all very simple really - get yourself a wife to control the money! He plays by certain rules: No 1 is - poker & alcohol do not go together and No 2 is - never reload at a table. He sits at a R1/2 table with R200 and if he loses it then thats it for the night. Invariably if it has been a bad night and he gets stuck out then he starts playing with a grudge so hence the no reload rule.
We also only withdraw once a month and that is towards the end of the month when all our bills are due. I make up a list of what funds we need and thats what we draw.

Dont forget. Alot poker pros make alot money off endorsements. So if they do lose alot online they really not losing they own money sort of.

You have to win a lot of money and do very well in poker to make a living and play poker. Bankroll management might be a good idea to get help. You should make certain rules and limits to manage your money and playing poker to get the best outcome. It's not so easy and takes a lot of dedication so you must be patient.

They are pros with money on and off the tables, they win or lose but at all times have enough to back the plays they make in case the hit an unlucky string. These are highly intelligent, talented people we are talking about who know what they are doing. And while they do make money off of endorsements, they have to be damn good to get to that point.

there did have pro players who live on poker.you can find them in some players listing website.they have even some special terms of wining.like roi(which means:return of investment),itm(which means:in the money).you can see these pro earn a lot of money every month.i found most of them play tournament.they win one out dozen.and winings cover lose.they make money constantly.

Why should pros be any different than any worker? Some live within there budgets some don’t. Isn’t a budget the same as BR managemt?
DuaneK

I am not by any means a pro or even mid to high stakes, but in the past when I was playing a lot, what I would do would be to set the level I was doing well at and establish the bankroll for that level, using the normal bankroll guidelines. Then anytime I had more than my bankroll I would cash out that portion. Back then neteller accepted US players and I would leave it there until I needed it, kinda like a savings. That little account helped me through a divorce and enabled me to cash my pro fighters purses on the road. I was also a boxing trainer back then.

If I wanted to move up a level I would keep the extra in my poker account until I my bankroll got big enough to play at a higher level. There is no way you can rely on paying the bills until you reach a high level and play consistently well. But you can make some extra money which helps. Another idea is just using your rakeback funds as spending money. That is taking for granted you are playing with enough bankroll to well insure you wont go bust through the downswings.

The figure that I have heard quoted many times is that the top 5% of poker players are making a living from playing poker. With the next 5-10 showing a positive ROI, but we're talking about winning only slightly.

Most poker players don't track over time their sessions or only remember the winning ones.

I have just started down the route of playing poker to make a living..... rule number 1: make sure wherever you play u can beat the game. I'm lucky, I live in a country where playing poker is popular... but playing poker well is a rarity and I am clearing $1500 a week.

A previous poster recommended wife control the money and 1 buy in... i agree with the wife controlling part (not my wife though... she is just as extravagant as me!!!) but i don't agree with the 1 buy-in. If you bust out.... you have to buy back in and be prepared to do so..... because just as 1 player can take you out.... the swings will mean that you also will get a hand to double up. I suggest if you're being cautious to accept 3 buyins lost in 1 session as the maximum. When I play, I always buyin enough to cover the big stack on the table.

For example... I played last night at a casino I regularly play at. Table was 50/25 (Trinidad $ - so that's roughly 8/4 - much bigger than what I would play in Vegas... but the game here is different so I can handle it) Minimum buy in is $1000 and most are only buying in minimum. I bought in for 4000.... there were a couple of stacks around this so I wanted to be able to go up against them if necessary. A little way in, I was about 1000 down and some big pots had a few other players up to about 6000. I added another 2000 to my stack. So the equivalent buy in for me now in US$ is $1000 (6:1 TT$:$US).

After several hours of nothing I was down to just over 3000, so I am 3000 behind. I was considering calling it quits because I had lost half of my allowed buy in money. Then in the space of 20 minutes and 2 hands I had almost $9000 (US$1500). I ended up cashing out TT$8400 having bought in for 6000.

This is the way it goes... you have to be patient and you have to stick around for the hands. I can't count the number of times that I have been so far behind then in the space of a few hands am all of a sudden turning a good profit.

What if you sit down with your 1 $200 buyin and on the first hand end up all in pre-flop with Aces against Kings and lose to the set of Kings? Will your husband leave at that point? It doesn't make much sense.

Interesated to see what everyone else thinks.

Dantigua said:

I suggest if you're being cautious to accept 3 buyins lost in 1 session as the maximum.

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I'd say this is good advice. 3 buyins, i can see that. I think its more about emotion management than buyin management. If you start to feel the serious anxiety coming on from the thought of buying back in, you just dont do it. And i can definitely see that happening around 3 buyins.

Obviously have an amount where you know you wouldnt go past, but even bad days turn around at some point.

There was a 3 or 4 month span there where i was paying rent and bills off my winnings and living REALLY good. Now, not so much. I was just having a good streak and then it was all gone when i moved up to 3/6. But it was just over my head i think and i really got outplayed. So i can attest to the whole "dont move up until..." strategies out there, because its true.

dillingerdis said:

I'd say this is good advice. 3 buyins, i can see that. I think its more about emotion management than buyin management. If you start to feel the serious anxiety coming on from the thought of buying back in, you just dont do it. And i can definitely see that happening around 3 buyins.

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Sorry but if you are playing for a living and losing 3 buy-ins is a big deal for you, you're either playing too high or shouldn't be playing for a living.

depends on the individual

Its not all that different from your obvious bankroll management and yes your right, you would have to win consistently to pay your bills, rent, etc.
someone said it earlier, your not gonna stop eating if you lose right, so you should most definately sit down with what you are prepared to lose when first starting out until you have built your bankroll with a little room to maneuver a little and afford to lose and not get pissed about it. if you can do that, your doing allright for yourself then.

zach it all depends on the game u r playing..... if i was playing in vegas i would be more prepared to buy in more often.

in a game i'm familiar with, a regular game, same players.... u should need less buy-ins.

the game i play... if i lose 3 buyin i'm having a really bad night... it should all be gauged by the various factors.

i think i agree with the 3 buy ins thing. while it is true that you need to make sure you don't play with a grudge or go on tilt, 1 buyin isn't enough to worry about losing. now if you consistently lose that buy in... rethink things. but like dantigua said, a bad night can turn around very quickly and turn into a very profitable session.