Which poker game takes the most skill and the least luck?

Hey all,

I'm an NL Hold em player but I have played other poker games in freerolls/play money to try them out but I'm not familiar enough with them to know how much of the games is skill and luck. I would like to start playing and learning something besides hold em but I am not sure which is the best for me. Which game do you guys think takes the most skill and the least of luck. Hold em, Omaha, Omaha H/L, 7 Stud, 7 Stud H/L, or Razz? And if you can rank them in order that would be awesome. Obviously its hard to determine this, but I will be interested to see what is the opinion of the majority.

Thanks

This is really hard to answer imo. There's an implication that skill and luck can be separated in poker, which I think is false for just about every game.

Alot of the skill in PLO, for example, is in understanding and managing the "luck" aspect of the game - i.e., understanding hand ranges, putting opponents on ranges, and determining whether your hand is a favorite or not given the board and action, and we're frequently making these determinations on the flop. In limit games, you need to understand drawing odds and how to utilize aggression effectively, but obviously you're still subject to the cards to come. Etc.

I think I've heard stud described as the game where skill edges are most effective - but that depends on the player pool, so meh imo. I've also heard limit described as requiring more skill and no limit formats as the least skill - but again, it comes down to how well you're managing risk, so again meh.

I've heard razz described as the game least dependent on skill, but again meh.

Hope someone else gives you an answer more in line with what you're looking for, I realize I'm kinda missing your point w this response, but (for the last time ) meh.

Holdem

i believe that NL holdem is the game where you have to have the most skill, this is because you have to play in the right position and you are able to bet any size and are not limited. You also need to be able to play good solid poker to maintain a stack and very clever poker to make that perfect bluff!
adsthepro

I think they all have an element of luck to them, although Holdem is highest for bluff ability, with something like Razz or Omaha toward the bottom. So if you don't like the bluff aspect, you might want to gravitate toward something like Omaha.

You can also play a lot of the HORSE tourneys and get a feel what you like best.

Most skill? Limit games, with Stud H/L possibly having a higher skill edge over Omaha H/L (limit followed by pot limit). What makes Stud difficult is understanding how every card on the table that is or has been visible affects your odds of hitting and winning hi or low or both.

In limit, bluffing plays less of a factor, so unless you consider bluffing a skill (and to a great extent it is of course), limit is tougher, because people are more likely to call small bets, so you really need to understand your odds and such. Many little mistakes more suredly add up, even though your variance may be small.

Divebitch said:

Most skill? Limit games, with Stud H/L possibly having a higher skill edge over Omaha H/L (limit followed by pot limit). What makes Stud difficult is understanding how every card on the table that is or has been visible affects your odds of hitting and winning hi or low or both.

In limit, bluffing plays less of a factor, so unless you consider bluffing a skill (and to a great extent it is of course), limit is tougher, because people are more likely to call small bets, so you really need to understand your odds and such. Many little mistakes more suredly add up, even though your variance may be small.

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I forgot to include the NL/PL/Limit formats in my post, which does factor in. I have always assumed that NL takes the most skill because position and the card strength you are getting plays the most role. For example: It is not recommended to play weak cards like low suited connectors when UTG, because you will have to fold those to aggressive raises, but you don't have to worry about that in limit and you can play cards like 7 8 suited. Also like you said, the element of bluffing which can be considered a skill, isn't really there in limit.

In a game with small antes/blinds and deep money, unskilled opponents will get crushed. Luck will play a part in who wins a hand, not so much in who gets the money.

slycbnew said:

This is really hard to answer imo. There's an implication that skill and luck can be separated in poker, which I think is false for just about every game.

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Strongly agree.

slycbnew said:

I think I've heard stud described as the game where skill edges are most effective - but that depends on the player pool, so meh imo.

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Stud has lost popularity specifically for this reason. Unskilled opponents have little chance, don't get lucky, lose their money, and don't want to play any more. Keeping track of up cards, folds, and how that affects your chances is difficult. Not too mention how folded up cards affect the chances that your opponent has the hand he is representing... my head hurts.

I'd further agree that Razz has a strong element of luck. If your TAG and your loose/passive opponents are catching cards, you're in for a long day.

I'd want to be the luckiest player at Razz and the most skilled at Stud.

Interesting where NLHE (or other flop games) fits on that scale...

I would actually split it up between "artistic" and "scientific". I would say that the most "scientific" games of poker would be the limit games and stud. They require the greatest amount of memory (stud) and math skills (pot odds) for limit hod em, etc. While the most artistic by far is NL Hold Em for it's acting and bluffing elements. (Live anyway).

Omaha is probably the most extreme of "main games" of the poker world - kind of in a league of it's own - but not superior to Hold Em'.

How about the drawing games like 2-7 or badugi. I know these have not been mentioned much and maybe you didn't consider these. However, I would say these although less popular are more luck dependent.

jaggibson said:

How about the drawing games like 2-7 or badugi. I know these have not been mentioned much and maybe you didn't consider these. However, I would say these although less popular are more luck dependent.

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These are all lowball games I think (I know 2-7 is, I think badugi is) and are similar structurally to razz, anything said about razz applies to these games as well I think.

I would assume that the game that takes the most skill is No Limit Texas Hold 'Em. Out of the ones that you posted, I don't know which one takes the least skill, but if we expanded to all of the poker games, I think that Chinese Poker takes the least skill and most luck.

slycbnew said:

These are all lowball games I think (I know 2-7 is, I think badugi is) and are similar structurally to razz, anything said about razz applies to these games as well I think.

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I think luck is a huge factor in NL and FL triple draw and badugi- much greater than in razz, because there are no up cards. The art in reading your opponent, is most definitely a skill. Watching and determining your opponents drawing tendencies and betting patterns is crucial to being a winning player.

bilgert said:

I think luck is a huge factor in NL and FL triple draw and badugi- much greater than in razz, because there are no up cards. The art in reading your opponent, is most definitely a skill. Watching and determining your opponents drawing tendencies and betting patterns is crucial to being a winning player.

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Damn was going to defend my post, but you beat me too it. Pretty much what i was going to say the draw factor and no up cards.

jaggibson said:

Damn was going to defend my post, but you beat me too it. Pretty much what i was going to say the draw factor and no up cards.

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You're welcome

BTW, I would consider myself a decent razz player and a fair badugi and triple draw player. That's my personal bias for making this comment as well.

Mixed games take the most skill. If talking about individual games, imo, its limit omaha 8 and stud 8.

I would have to say Horse would take the most skillfull well rounded player. Luck is always a huge factor in any card game though.

nl h/l omaha the most options and cards

i would say MIXED on Full Tilt because every 10 hands the game changes so its the best player having the best diversified game. and aside from that id say stud because its more strategic of a game then all the others.

In regards to stud 8 I don't know if it's really the most skilled game. I would say stud hi is. Stud 8 you more play your starting hand, while stud hi is a little harder in figuring out what the other person has. The key to stud is remembering what cards have been shown. It's all about calculations...

slycbnew said:

These are all lowball games I think (I know 2-7 is, I think badugi is) and are similar structurally to razz, anything said about razz applies to these games as well I think.

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Not so. One of the most frustrating things about razz is that you're never, ever dealt a hand that's got instant showdown value. A23 is the best starting hand but it's worthless if your next cards come KQQ.

Deuce-seven, ace-five and badugi are different because they're draw games where you can be dealt a starting hand with showdown value, without having to draw, and once ever however many thousand hands you will be dealt the pat nuts. How you think that affects the skill v luck balance compared to razz is up to the individual, but it does make them very different games. Obviously the draw v stud structure is very different too in terms of the information you have about other players hands and memorising folded cards.

Anywho, IMO Divebitch got it right: the games that require the most skill are limit games because you need to be making close to optimal decisions all the time in order to profit. In PL/NL games you can make a bunch of small mistakes then get dealt a monster, get yourself paid and still end up with a profit. In limit games your winnings with your monster hands are capped so you can't necessarily make up for a bunch of small losses in a single hand.

That means I rarely play these games so I really couldn't give an intelligent opinion as to whether limit Omaha 8 takes more or less skill than stud or deuce-seven triple draw

I guess it's already been said and it obviously makes sense. Mixed games like HORSE and 8-game would require the most skill because they aren't 'real' games per se, but rather a combination of a host of real games. I'm not implying that mixed games aren't legitimate because they are, but I think it's like the board game Cranium. They just took a bunch of great games and made a game out of it.