Is Poker Gambling?

B

Blown01Cobra

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 7, 2012
Total posts
162
Chips
0
Poker is associated with casinos, and casinos are of course associated with gambling, therefore the assumption made by the general population is that poker must in fact be gambling. It is this general consensus that poker is gambling that I believe there is such a strong push to control, monitor, and restrict players ability to do so. And this assumption is only reinforced by the idea that many poker players, including professionals, contine to refer to the game as gambling. I don't think it's possible to be a professional gambler - a professional investor, yes. But gambler? Not possible, because no is so lucky that the coincidence could lead them to end up favorably on a consistant basis when the odds are far against them. There are no pro slot machine players. And the only professional blackjack players are those who are capable of turning the odds of the game in their favor (generally a 1% edge) using frowned upon tactics that find them kicked out of most private casinos and under constant surveillance.

In my opinion, gambling is making a decision to bet on something when the odds are not in your favor - generally considerably so - while investing is making a decision to 'bet' on something when the odds are in your favor - generally considerably so. Usually, gamblers are making a decision on a consistant basis that is not in their best interest while investors are making decisions that are in their best interest. It's assumed that an investor will make money with a rare occurence of a potential large loss, while gamblers are assumed to lose money while expecting a rare, but large gain in order to make up their losses. Again, we can play poker with a gambling mindset, but you can throw money at stocks bound to fail too - so it's not the medium that is the definition, it's the personality of the individual that defines the medium of gambling.

Essentially, it's quite possible that people can play poker with a gambling mindset, just as people are quite possible of "investing" in the stock market with a gambling mindset or making any number of decisions on a gamble, yet there continue to be stricter limitations for poker players on where and how they can play.

Basically, I think one of the biggest reasons that playing poker in the US is becoming more difficult is because even as poker players we're giving individuals the reinforcement that poker is a game of gambling, even though at the core we're simply making decisions based upon favorable odds, historical data of other players actions in certain situations. This is why poker is not gambling and why games like slots are. In poker we always have complete control over our decisions, and we can use tools to persuade our opponents to do certain things. Sure sometimes we get unlucky, but there are definate probabilities at play and definate data we can use to make the best decision. Consider horse racing for instance. You could say you have a wealth of information available, prior probabilities, etc, but what separates horse racing is that beyond making a bet, the results are completely beyond your control. In poker you always have the ability to minimize your losses, just like the stock market, you can always fold out and get out when things are seemingly not in your favor. You always have the ability to make decisions on the table that affect the other opponents, and nothing you do in horse racing, slots, roulette, etc is capable of persuading anything to go in your favor. Perhaps, in some ways, you have more control over the outcome in a card game of poker than you even do in buying stocks, where the results are again entirely beyond your control.

I just think the first step in changing the publics perception on poker is changing the way we refer to poker. What do you think? I did a whole write up in college I'll have to search for one time about how the decisions we make in poker are no different than any other decision we make in life with our money and how the luck that plays into poker is similar to luck that plays out in football and basketball.
 
Last edited:
SYWTWAF

SYWTWAF

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 13, 2011
Total posts
198
Awards
1
Chips
4
Every consistently winning poker player (and probably many of the ones who aren't winning) knows that poker involves something fundamentally different from fixed-odds casino games. I am personally mindful never to refer to my poker playing as "gambling", and I agree with you that the association has a part in harming poker's image. However, I think the big picture is a little more complicated than that...

I think the "gambling" association isn't truly at the root of poker's problems; it is, rather, a convenient piece of rhetoric that every party that has a stake in poker's viability (or lack thereof) has come to strategically deploy. The crackdowns, the restrictions, the condescension (on the part of governments/the DOJ) are that much more palatable to the public because it can be made to appear to be about a bunch of dumb gamblers being purged of their vices. Imagine the public uproar and sympathy that would have ensued had Black Friday, instead, involved confiscating land from farmers, burning down shops of business owners, etc. But nooo... because the sphere in question can be couched in terms of "gambling", it becomes unimaginable that perfectly upstanding livelihoods and innocent pastimes were destroyed.

And yet, though it is difficult to state with certainty the exact cause of it, I would bet my ass that online poker restriction and Black Friday have little to do with genuine ethical concerns about "gambling", or the "well-being" of the individual gambler (just look at all the brick and mortar gambling purveyors where you, you poor little gambler, are more than welcome to quench your pathetic addiction), and much more so with the financial interests of certain parties.

However, I must concede that poker players also have a two-sided agenda in affirming or disavowing their relationship with "gambling". We will shun the label when seeking legalization or lauding our own accomplishments, but we most happily welcome to our games precisely the sorts of people who do see poker as being about luck and gambling, and thus are unlikely to hone their skills. The poker economy for us, calculated risk takers, thrives on the involvement of clueless gamblers--and we are perfectly happy to keep up the image of poker as a gambling game for them.

We're all a bunch of self-interested hypocrites, almost every one of us. :)
 
Last edited:
Iceman2120

Iceman2120

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Total posts
26
Chips
0
Billy Baxter — He went heads up against the IRS — and won

Billy Baxter, a "man about town" in Las Vegas, is a very successful 63-year-old professional gambler. He’s a sports-betting expert and well-known high-stakes poker player who has seven world series of poker bracelets to his credit, trailing only Doyle Brunson, Johnny Chan, and Phil Hellmuth in that category. Many know him as the guy who staked Stu Ungar when he captured his third world championship in 1997. Baxter is renowned for his gambling expertise and poker accomplishments. His greatest achievement, however, came not on the green felt, but in the courtroom, where he stood up to the IRS (William E. Baxter Jr. vs. the United States) in a case that became a landmark decision for professional poker players. That case, decided in 1986, grew out of an earlier IRS ruling that Baxter’s $1.2 million in gambling winnings from 1978 to 1981 was "unearned income," in the same category as dividends and interest.

Under the tax laws that applied for those years, "unearned income" was taxable at the maximum rate of 70 percent. Baxter, who was in the 50-percent tax bracket (and paying that rate), claimed the money was earned income, like a salary, and shouldn’t be in the 70-percent tax bracket. The IRS didn’t see it that way. It claimed his gambling income was luck, and said he owed $178,000 more.

His CPA (E.J. Maddocks) advised Baxter to pay the money to the IRS (inasmuch as penalties and interest could pile up considerably), but to pay it under protest. Baxter did so, and then sued for return of the money. To him, it was earned income, and he was willing to fight the IRS (which had never lost a case like this) to get his money back. Baxter strongly believed that when he went to work to play a poker tournament, it was no different than when Jack Nicklaus went to work to play a golf tournament — and they should pay the same tax.

The case was heard in Reno, Nevada. The judge listened to the IRS’ side and then to Baxter’s side. In ruling, the judge said, "I find the government’s argument to be ludicrous. I just wish you had some money and could sit down with Mr. Baxter and play some poker." He ruled that the government should give Baxter his money back with interest.

The government appealed the ruling, and the case then went to a U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. Again, the court ruled in Baxter’s favor. And again, the government appealed and said it was were going to take the case to the U.S. Supreme Court.

After due consideration, the government apparently thought it might not win there, and wanted to make a deal with Baxter. He held his ground and emphatically said, "No!" The government later dropped the case and Baxter got all of his money back with interest. (The interest barely covered his attorney’s fees, but it was a sweet victory, which was all Baxter wanted.) He had stepped up to the plate and hit a home run off the government.

In poker terms, the government was bluffing when it said it wanted to go to the Supreme Court — and Baxter called the bluff. Numerous articles were written about the case (including in TIME and Sports Illustrated), as it was historical in significance. Poker winnings are now considered "earned income" because of Baxter vs. the United States. This means that poker players can pay taxes on earned income, deduct expenses and losses, put money into retirement funds, and so on. If you’re a professional poker player, the next time you see Billy Baxter, go up to him and thank him for fighting the IRS 20 years ago. Your life is better because of him.

I knew this for years now. I looked it up on the internet to get the exact wording. So after reading this does anyone consider poker gambling? :)
 
bz54321

bz54321

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
842
Chips
0
yes it is gambling. Gambling is when you put up a stake on an uncertain outcome.

Are we changing the definition of gambling?
 
Z

Zin

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 13, 2010
Total posts
395
Chips
0
Everything we do in life is a gamble. As for poker i believe its 70% skill and 30% luck.
 
A2345Razz

A2345Razz

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 4, 2012
Total posts
1,190
Chips
0
Actually its a game of skills, the court already decided that in court.

Im sort of baffled as to why you seem to believe the two to be mutually exclusive.

You can be skilled at gambling ala card counters....

Its a gambling game of skill.
 
bz54321

bz54321

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
842
Chips
0
Everything we do in life is a gamble. As for poker i believe its 70% skill and 30% luck.

I agree pretty much everything you do is gambling. Like buying a house seems like one of the biggest gambles.
However I think poker is more like 80% luck 20% skill. There just isent a lot of choices when playing poker. Fold, Bet, Check\Call and you cant win without getting some luck (in tournys anyway).
 
dj11

dj11

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Total posts
23,189
Awards
9
Chips
0
My opinion is that the skills involved in poker are in maneuvering yourself into a situation where you get lucky.

:confused:
 
MediaBLITZ

MediaBLITZ

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Total posts
2,206
Chips
0
My opinion is that the skills involved in poker are in maneuvering yourself into a situation where you get lucky.

:confused:
+1 but I'm going to amend that a little - puting yourself in a situation where the statistical variables of "luck" are in your favor and working for you.
Like any investment, it is wise to exercise due diligence and know what you are putting money into. Also, as with any investment, the risk of ruin is always lurking.
 
Yoshimiii

Yoshimiii

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Total posts
1,058
Chips
0
I agree pretty much everything you do is gambling. Like buying a house seems like one of the biggest gambles.
However I think poker is more like 80% luck 20% skill. There just isent a lot of choices when playing poker. Fold, Bet, Check\Call and you cant win without getting some luck (in tournys anyway).

Definately don't agree with that percentage, I would but them two the other way around! 20% luck and 80% skill, if it was mostly luck I don't think we would any poker pro's as getting that lucky for so long? Almost impossible.
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

Jammin................
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Total posts
11,706
Awards
2
Chips
122
Marriage is a gamble.

That has nothing to do with this thread, but I just thought I would throw that ins there.
 
R

RamdeeBen

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Total posts
7,745
Chips
0
Poker is gambling, no matter which way you want to dress it up.

Placing ANY wager ($$$ in most cases) on ANYTHING that doesn't have a guaranteed outcome is a gamble.
 
R

RamdeeBen

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Total posts
7,745
Chips
0
Everything we do in life is a gamble. As for poker i believe its 70% skill and 30% luck.

No..

You can use the term "gamble" in different contexts, but gamble/gambling has only one real meaning and that wagering something ($$$ in most cases) on an event that doesn't have a guaranteed outcome.

The whole skill/luck percentage is something that will never been known because it's so player dependent. Better players obviously will have a skill advantage, but the luck aspect in poker of a good poker player will be just the same as a bad players luck.

Of course most people agree that skill over the long haul does over come the luck factor.
 
Iceman2120

Iceman2120

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Total posts
26
Chips
0
Is poker as a profession gambling?

I guess the matter of poker as a profession is up for interpretation. I will give you a landmark case that in my opinion is proof of the point that it is not gambling, but yet a game of skill. The case i am speaking of is "Billy Baxter vs. the IRS". This decision in Reno, Nevada was that poker "IS NOT" gambling, but in fact a game of skill, insomuch as the judge stated to the prosecutor, I find the government’s argument to be ludicrous. I just wish you had some money and could sit down with Mr. Baxter and play some poker." He ruled that the government should give Baxter his money back with interest. Later the The government would go on to appeal the ruling which went to the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. The ruling once more went in the favor of Billy. The government once more threatened to appeal the decision to the U.S. Supreme Court After considering it, the government decided that they were going to try and strike a deal with Billy in which he told them "ABSOLUTELY NOT". The government finally dropped the case and gave Billy back his money with interest. So if you play poker as a profession, i hope this blog has answered your question "IS POKER AS A PROFESSION GAMBLING?" Although this article was written after reading it from articles from years ago, i certify that this is written in my own words and "IN NO WAY" is stolen or plagiarized.
 
aa88wildbill

aa88wildbill

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Total posts
647
Chips
0
I think the judge in this case was right, but they were talking about live poker. Where there's more skill involved. I'm not sure that you could make the same case for online poker. Don't get me wrong time for online poker, but there is a little bit more luck involved. Maybe if they made the random generators more like real deck of cards. You could make a case for Online poker .
 
dj11

dj11

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Total posts
23,189
Awards
9
Chips
0
I agree with the statement the title of this thread makes.

In fact, the software for money management that the day traders at home use, should probably be a model for the money management that each/every OLP site uses.

It (that software) would need to know who you are, what your finances are, and be able to execute trades (make bets online) at a fast rate. I doubt the financial software is quite up to 2-60 (multi-tabling) trades a minute with many variations available, so the existing OLP software guys and the day trader software guys would need to consult to make a truly robust banking software for both endeavors.

Win/Win
 
dj11

dj11

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Total posts
23,189
Awards
9
Chips
0
I think the judge in this case was right, but they were talking about live poker. Where there's more skill involved. I'm not sure that you could make the same case for online poker. Don't get me wrong time for online poker, but there is a little bit more luck involved. Maybe if they made the random generators more like real deck of cards. You could make a case for Online poker .

Funny me, but I trust the online RNG more than I would trust any dealer I have ever seen.:eek:
 
bz54321

bz54321

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
842
Chips
0
Is poker as a profession gambling?
Can you lose everything you own and wake up sleeping under a bridge being a professional poker player?
 
A2345Razz

A2345Razz

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 4, 2012
Total posts
1,190
Chips
0
It can both be gambling and a game of skill...

I think you are confused about the meaning of the word gambling...


Gambling does not mean your decisions have NO bearing on the outcome.
 
bz54321

bz54321

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Total posts
842
Chips
0
Is it a gamble to start a new business from scratch?
 
domeburglar

domeburglar

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Total posts
607
Chips
0
I think the judge in this case was right, but they were talking about live poker. Where there's more skill involved. I'm not sure that you could make the same case for online poker. Don't get me wrong time for online poker, but there is a little bit more luck involved. Maybe if they made the random generators more like real deck of cards. You could make a case for Online poker .

Ive always been more of a live player and started getting into online poker more recently.. and to say that there is more skill involved in either is crazy.. There is just as much skill involved in live play as online.. The skills are different in some aspects.. You can be much more of a "feel" player live as u have alot of physical info at your disposal while online you need to play alot more of a mathmatical game
 
Iceman2120

Iceman2120

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Total posts
26
Chips
0
Can you lose everything you own and wake up sleeping under a bridge being a professional poker player?

No, absolutely not, if you use the correct BR management. When you quote Vince Lombardi here, i am sure he doesn't mean every game. Of course in poker you are going to have losing sessions, but with BR management and discipline you cannot lose it all. Think that about sums it up.
 
Related Gambling Guides: AU Gambling - CA Gambling - UK Gambling - NZ Gambling - Online Gambling
Top