Poker etiquette--showing mucked cards

Lheticus

Lheticus

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I've heard and pretty much agree with the idea that even though the rules allow it, asking to see a mucked hand when you won the pot is pretty frowned upon, but what if there's a less ruthless way of having the same effect? Say you're hesitating on a final call--in my opinion a circumstance that would arise in many cases that you'd want to see a mucked losing hand. I'd first ask "if I call and beat you, will you show?" In a way, I see this as sort of the inverse of the old "will you show if I fold?" question, and I believe a far more reasonable one. If they say no or are noncommittal, I'd then say something like "Well if I call and you do muck, I'm having the dealer show it. I just can't NOT see what you have here."

In essence, what I'm proposing is to give warning before showdown about the use of the rule that allows for a player to have mucked cards revealed when they win a hand. So what do you guys think? Reasonable, or is it still rude? Or well, as I'd PERSONALLY put it, ruthless?
 
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I believe that the only time to see a mucked hand is at showdown if you call a river bet, and the person mucks before showing. At any other time, if he mucks, so be it. The only reason to see mucked hands is for information on that player. Does that answer your question?
 
detroitjunkie

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The rule states that whoever was the last aggressor on the river MUST show first if players hesitate or have issues. However, it is any players right, who was in the hand at showdown, to ask to see a players cards...watch out though - some card rooms will declare these hands live, so if it beats you - even if mucked - you will lose the pot

Do I think you should ask to see every mucked hand that you have a right to? I think no, because it slows down the game and can appear to be rude.

Most card rooms will also allow any player who was dealt a hand to inquire about a mucked hand at showdown - the 'shown' cards will not be live..this gets a little out of control and I will actually issue warnings if a particular player keeps asking to see hands if they are not in at showdown, this can also draw extreme criticism from other players - especially in a time raked game.
 
Lheticus

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I believe that the only time to see a mucked hand is at showdown if you call a river bet, and the person mucks before showing. At any other time, if he mucks, so be it. The only reason to see mucked hands is for information on that player. Does that answer your question?

Well, err...no. No it doesn't. Not even a little, actually.

The rule states that whoever was the last aggressor on the river MUST show first if players hesitate or have issues. However, it is any players right, who was in the hand at showdown, to ask to see a players cards...watch out though - some card rooms will declare these hands live, so if it beats you - even if mucked - you will lose the pot

Do I think you should ask to see every mucked hand that you have a right to? I think no, because it slows down the game and can appear to be rude.

Most card rooms will also allow any player who was dealt a hand to inquire about a mucked hand at showdown - the 'shown' cards will not be live..this gets a little out of control and I will actually issue warnings if a particular player keeps asking to see hands if they are not in at showdown, this can also draw extreme criticism from other players - especially in a time raked game.

I said nothing about me asking to see mucked cards when I'm not involved in a hand at showdown. Nor did I say anything about showing every mucked hand I possibly can. What I mean is, even asking outside of these circumstances--that I've said nothing about--I believe is still often considered rude. I don't really think it's rational to consider it rude to do every once in a while on hands that I'm really curious about what they're calling/betting with, but I think generally it still is to avail oneself of that option AT ALL.

What I want to know is, would that perception--that it's basically never okay to ask to see a mucked hand--would change or at least be more forgiving if I declared intent to do so at the end of the hand before the hand is over?
 
detroitjunkie

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Well, err...no. No it doesn't. Not even a little, actually.



I said nothing about me asking to see mucked cards when I'm not involved in a hand at showdown. Nor did I say anything about showing every mucked hand I possibly can. What I mean is, even asking outside of these circumstances--that I've said nothing about--I believe is still often considered rude. I don't really think it's rational to consider it rude to do every once in a while on hands that I'm really curious about what they're calling/betting with, but I think generally it still is to avail oneself of that option AT ALL.

What I want to know is, would that perception--that it's basically never okay to ask to see a mucked hand--would change or at least be more forgiving if I declared intent to do so at the end of the hand before the hand is over?

I know of no perception that it is NEVER ok, at least not in the poker rooms in Michigan or Vegas or Florida, only if done too often. But to answer your question I do not think your statements will change anything, poker players are typically set in their ways no matter
 
Abramo Della Luce

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if I call and beat you, will you show?
This sounds quite ok to me and indeed more reasonable than the "if I fold will show" question.

Well if I call and you do muck, I'm having the dealer show it. I just can't NOT see what you have here.
This feels quite rude to me and frankly a bit childish (no offense).
I think that when they fold, you have already the information that they had a worse hand than you. If you think about asking to see, you probably have a questionable hand yourself, so they had even less than that. This kind of gives away that they were making a bluff on the river. It is true that you will not know if they missed a draw, or if they were just making a stone cold bluff, but the information you got was already valuable.
 
tocloc238

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There was a post I read in the past where a player who was bluffing on the river with a huge raise, was called by his opponent. He then wanted the caller to turn his cards over first, but the opponent said no, that the aggressor has to show first. Instead of showing his bluff which was K high, he threw his cards into the muck. The caller then flipped over his hand. All he had was Q high! The raiser then grabs his cards back and flips them over showing he has K high, but the dealer told him his hand is dead since they had already touched the muck.

The caller had a read on the bluffer that he would throw his cards in the muck if he was called, which is why he called with only Q high.
 
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smallfrie

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The rule states that whoever was the last aggressor on the river MUST show first if players hesitate or have issues. However, it is any players right, who was in the hand at showdown, to ask to see a players cards...watch out though - some card rooms will declare these hands live, so if it beats you - even if mucked - you will lose the pot
All rules I mention are rules regarding --->Poker Tournaments, they may or may not apply to cash games depending on where you are. ("House Rules" rule in cash games and in regards to cash games vary widely from room to room)

If a player was in the hand at showdown but mucked their own hand face down they have no right to see the hand. (See below TDA year 2015 rule 17)

The rule regarding showing of mucked hands was very lenient in 2009. In 2011 the TDA changed the rule to Tournament Directors discretion with no rights mentioned for anyone still in hand at showdown (Which I thought was sufficient because I assumed anyone in the position of TD would know the rights of individual players at showdown... I was wrong, unfortunately Tournament directors seem to have no clue without clearly defined specific rules) In 2013 The rule was changed to read like the part A: below and in 2015 part B: was added.

2015 TDA rule 17: Asking to See a Hand
A: Players not still in possession of cards at showdown, or who have mucked their cards face down
without tabling, lose any rights or privileges to ask to see any hand.
B: If there was a river bet, any caller has an inalienable right to see the last aggressor’s hand
on request (“the hand he paid to see”) provided the caller retains or has tabled his cards.
TDs discretion governs all other requests such as to see the hand of another caller, or if
there was no river bet. See Illustration Addendum [adopted 2013].

I will note that last year the Beau Rivage in Biloxi, MS was still announcing before every tournament that the 2009 TDA rules apply to their tournaments even though at that time the 2015 rules were being worked out and for some reason they never adopted the 2011 or 2013 rules. In my travels far and wide to Poker Rooms in many different states in the USA most follow the latest edition of the TDA rules with some modification for house rules that must be followed and can not be disregarded even in tournaments.
("House Rules" may be in place because of specific state laws or previous issues legal or otherwise and are not usually arbitrary but sometimes are.)
 
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deaddep

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why show mucked hands? don't think it's true, you give extra information about its spectrum.
 
Serjo600

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HM2 in online shows the dumped hands reached opening whether there is a sense to show cards if you have anyway won.
 
smallfrie

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There was a post I read in the past where a player who was bluffing on the river with a huge raise, was called by his opponent. He then wanted the caller to turn his cards over first, but the opponent said no, that the aggressor has to show first. Instead of showing his bluff which was K high, he threw his cards into the muck. The caller then flipped over his hand. All he had was Q high! The raiser then grabs his cards back and flips them over showing he has K high, but the dealer told him his hand is dead since they had already touched the muck.

The caller had a read on the bluffer that he would throw his cards in the muck if he was called, which is why he called with only Q high.

Touching the muck does not automatically kill a hand (see TDA rule 14 below). Mucking a hand and not being able to clearly identify the cards mucked is the big problem. Cards can still be identified if they are touching the muck but are in most cases impossible to 100% identify if they have been pushed into the muck.

In this video of a dealer at the wsop accidentally pulls a players hand into the muck and the tournament director tries to 100% identify the cards even though they were pulled into the muck. In the end the tournament director could not identify the cards but an attempt was made.
TDA 2015 rule 14: Live Cards at Showdown
Discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; a player may change his mind and table his cards if they remain 100% identifiable. Cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck.
 
smallfrie

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I've heard and pretty much agree with the idea that even though the rules allow it, asking to see a mucked hand when you won the pot is pretty frowned upon, but what if there's a less ruthless way of having the same effect? Say you're hesitating on a final call--in my opinion a circumstance that would arise in many cases that you'd want to see a mucked losing hand. I'd first ask "if I call and beat you, will you show?" In a way, I see this as sort of the inverse of the old "will you show if I fold?" question, and I believe a far more reasonable one. If they say no or are noncommittal, I'd then say something like "Well if I call and you do muck, I'm having the dealer show it. I just can't NOT see what you have here."

In essence, what I'm proposing is to give warning before showdown about the use of the rule that allows for a player to have mucked cards revealed when they win a hand. So what do you guys think? Reasonable, or is it still rude? Or well, as I'd PERSONALLY put it, ruthless?

Thanks for the post. I think personally the ill will at the table from players for violations or even perceived violations of etiquette are not worth the information you will gain from seeing the hand and if you do what you are stating above the perception may be worse than just asking to see the cards :) Why does it matter?
If you are playing a tournament and trying to build a stack after blinds and antes have kicked in and you are now getting 5 calls instead of 1 because the whole table does not like you, and now are consciously or subconsciously colluding then building off of Blind and ante steals through pre-flop bets and following through with c-bets is pretty much now gone from +ev to -ev.
 
ismagul

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best is not to show the card if there is no need for showdown
 
korneel

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i always muck my cards and i will not allow them to see my mucked cards;
 
B

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Guess I'm just too easy going, all you need to do is ask me and I'll show even online. If I show you a big winning hand you may fold to my next bluff. If I show you a bluff you may call my next winning hand. I don't mind showing.:D:D
 
detroitjunkie

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All rules I mention are rules regarding --->Poker Tournaments, they may or may not apply to cash games depending on where you are. ("House Rules" rule in cash games and in regards to cash games vary widely from room to room)

If a player was in the hand at showdown but mucked their own hand face down they have no right to see the hand. (See below TDA year 2015 rule 17)

The rule regarding showing of mucked hands was very lenient in 2009. In 2011 the TDA changed the rule to Tournament Directors discretion with no rights mentioned for anyone still in hand at showdown (Which I thought was sufficient because I assumed anyone in the position of TD would know the rights of individual players at showdown... I was wrong, unfortunately Tournament directors seem to have no clue without clearly defined specific rules) In 2013 The rule was changed to read like the part A: below and in 2015 part B: was added.

2015 TDA rule 17: Asking to See a Hand
A: Players not still in possession of cards at showdown, or who have mucked their cards face down
without tabling, lose any rights or privileges to ask to see any hand.
B: If there was a river bet, any caller has an inalienable right to see the last aggressor’s hand
on request (“the hand he paid to see”) provided the caller retains or has tabled his cards.
TDs discretion governs all other requests such as to see the hand of another caller, or if
there was no river bet. See Illustration Addendum [adopted 2013].

I will note that last year the Beau Rivage in Biloxi, MS was still announcing before every tournament that the 2009 TDA rules apply to their tournaments even though at that time the 2015 rules were being worked out and for some reason they never adopted the 2011 or 2013 rules. In my travels far and wide to Poker Rooms in many different states in the USA most follow the latest edition of the TDA rules with some modification for house rules that must be followed and can not be disregarded even in tournaments.
("House Rules" may be in place because of specific state laws or previous issues legal or otherwise and are not usually arbitrary but sometimes are.)

Yea, if you muck your own cards you have no right to ask for anything -for most rule books that is - this is for cash or tourneys.

One thing to add. If there is NO betting on the river, whoever is first to act by button rule is required to show first. So if you are in cutoff seat against UTG, and no bet on river, and you KNOW you have UTG beat but want to see his cards - let him show first because he has to (this is not slow rolling so no worries there), otherwise you may lose the opportunity if he mucks after you show.

As a floor, I would allow someone who shows their hand to ask to see another that was mucked - if and only if the dealer has not touched the cards to the muck, and only once per level. I am not wasting tourney clock time fishing cards out of a muck constantly. If said player keeps asking to see peoples hands I may actually issue that player a warning. In a cash game things are a bit different.

We use a mix of TDA & Roberts Rules (because we are a charity room) and all other issues fall into WSOP rule (which allows for ANYONE dealt into a hand the ability to ask to see a mucked hand at showdown - the kicker is that if the player still in at showdown is the one to ask, the mucked cards are live - as of 2015, may change for 2016 but doubt it)
 
smallfrie

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Yea, if you muck your own cards you have no right to ask for anything -for most rule books that is - this is for cash or tourneys.

One thing to add. If there is NO betting on the river, whoever is first to act by button rule is required to show first. So if you are in cutoff seat against UTG, and no bet on river, and you KNOW you have UTG beat but want to see his cards - let him show first because he has to (this is not slow rolling so no worries there), otherwise you may lose the opportunity if he mucks after you show.

Yes that is totally consistent with TDA 2015 Rule 16: Non All-In Showdowns
A: In a non all-in showdown, if cards are not spontaneously tabled or discarded, the TD may enforce an
order of show. The last aggressive player on the final betting round (final street) must table first. If there
was no bet on the final street, the player who would act first if it were a betting round must table first
(i.e. first seat left of the button in flop games, high hand showing in stud, low hand in razz, etc.).
B: A non all-in showdown is uncontested if all but one player mucks face down without tabling. The last
player with live cards wins and he is not required to show his cards.
 
tocloc238

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Touching the muck does not automatically kill a hand (see TDA rule 14 below). Mucking a hand and not being able to clearly identify the cards mucked is the big problem. Cards can still be identified if they are touching the muck but are in most cases impossible to 100% identify if they have been pushed into the muck.

In this video of a dealer at the WSOP accidentally pulls a players hand into the muck and the tournament director tries to 100% identify the cards even though they were pulled into the muck. In the end the tournament director could not identify the cards but an attempt was made.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxH2CwqwbaM
TDA 2015 rule 14: Live Cards at Showdown
Discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; a player may change his mind and table his cards if they remain 100% identifiable. Cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck.

Yes that is totally consistent with TDA 2015 Rule 16: Non All-In Showdowns
A: In a non all-in showdown, if cards are not spontaneously tabled or discarded, the TD may enforce an
order of show. The last aggressive player on the final betting round (final street) must table first. If there
was no bet on the final street, the player who would act first if it were a betting round must table first
(i.e. first seat left of the button in flop games, high hand showing in stud, low hand in razz, etc.).
B: A non all-in showdown is uncontested if all but one player mucks face down without tabling. The last
player with live cards wins and he is not required to show his cards.


Seems that being able to "change your mind" leaves room for angles. Player could intentionally throw his cards face down touching the muck, then after see his opponent muck his cards, immediately "change his mind" and table his hand.??? It would suck if in this scenario the angle shooter's cards are identifiable, but the victims cards are not.
 
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M

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i never follow unwritten rules simply because they're not rules! do whatever the hell you want. those unwritten rules are probably from the "social" players, not the true competitors.
 
detroitjunkie

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Seems that being able to "change your mind" leaves room for angles. Player could intentionally throw his cards face down touching the muck, then after see his opponent muck his cards, immediately "change his mind" and table his hand.??? It would suck if in this scenario the angle shooter's cards are identifiable, but the victims cards are not.

This would be very rare since most good dealers will award the pot before 'mucking' the remaining winning hand...they should leave it face down in front of the player then draw them in after pot is awarded.
 
Lheticus

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This sounds quite ok to me and indeed more reasonable than the "if I fold will show" question.


This feels quite rude to me and frankly a bit childish (no offense).
I think that when they fold, you have already the information that they had a worse hand than you. If you think about asking to see, you probably have a questionable hand yourself, so they had even less than that. This kind of gives away that they were making a bluff on the river. It is true that you will not know if they missed a draw, or if they were just making a stone cold bluff, but the information you got was already valuable.

Thank you for this, it pointed out an area needing clarification that I hadn't been aware of. I actually wouldn't put what I've mentioned into practice when I have a questionable hand--if I win with a questionable hand I'm too relieved to want that information badly enough to ask. Where I would ask about mucking and say I really want to see it, is if I have a very GOOD hand but with the way the action's been going, I suspect villain may have the nuts. In THAT case, in the event he/she doesn't have the nuts, the information of what they do have would be extremely valuable to me. Valuable enough that if I'm within my rights to acquire it, I am going to.

Thanks for the post. I think personally the ill will at the table from players for violations or even perceived violations of etiquette are not worth the information you will gain from seeing the hand and if you do what you are stating above the perception may be worse than just asking to see the cards :) Why does it matter?
If you are playing a tournament and trying to build a stack after blinds and antes have kicked in and you are now getting 5 calls instead of 1 because the whole table does not like you, and now are consciously or subconsciously colluding then building off of Blind and ante steals through pre-flop bets and following through with c-bets is pretty much now gone from +ev to -ev.

I'm not really making sense of this, it just seems outlandish to me that the other people at the table will be THAT affected by it.

----------

As a general aside to something several people have indicated, I am indeed talking about doing this in tournament play. I'm not really a cash game player, actually.
 
olfabiolo

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I think as a rule should be long in clubs and poker tournaments, if there is the need to shows, I think it should be shown and you have the chance not there shows at the discretion of the player.
 
BBr3

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I never show, if I could erase they're memories of my past hand history I would.

Unless I make a huge bluff and want to piss them off :p
 
meagain00

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When u show mucked cards u give information, so its not so good.

meagain00
 
Ivab

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"Pay and see." Usually because I respond to such requests. Players show their hand in order to achieve their goal. Poker is not just a mathematical calculation and testing of luck. It is also a test of psychology. Typically, players are trying to confuse each other. And opening his arms in a certain situation is welcome to mislead your opponent. And to believe in such concepts as -etiket, honesty and fairness, I think is silly. In this game, we always strive to fool everyone. And many use any available methods no matter what. :fight:
 
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