M
mbs777
Enthusiast
Silver Level
why don't you google poker bots
4Aces
is watching you
Silver Level
Its not hard to play 9 tables at once, well it is for me but i mean if you practice enough, it can be done.
Try to find "elky" on poker stars, that guy play a ridiculous amount of table at once and there is no way he can be turning a profit.
Try to find "elky" on poker stars, that guy play a ridiculous amount of table at once and there is no way he can be turning a profit.
M
mbs777
Enthusiast
Silver Level
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
We haven't had a 'bot' thread in , well gosh, seems like a month. They are real, and the best are yet to come. They probably represent the one thing that actually could kill online poker.
Recently, like in the last week or 2 there was a contest between the state of the art bot, run by I believe the University of Toronto (feel free to correct me) and Phil Lock and another pro.
The pros won. But it was a convoluted contest, and the idea wasn't so much a contest as a learning experience. The AI bots needed more info on what and how to deal with imperfect information. The whole field of AI lacks in this area. At the halfway point in the contest it looked like the bots were holding their own. During the break, the pros gathered their wits about them and took control.
Eventually this technology will spread though the young guys programming cult, and will end up in a bot capable of +ROI real money poker against live online players.
It is one of the reasons private tourneys, such as the ones here, are much better than the anonymous tourneys in the world.
I for one would welcome a site regularly REQUIRING something in the chat box from each player at a table. At bare minimum it would help slow down an infusion of bots.
They are real, they are here, and better ones are coming!
Recently, like in the last week or 2 there was a contest between the state of the art bot, run by I believe the University of Toronto (feel free to correct me) and Phil Lock and another pro.
The pros won. But it was a convoluted contest, and the idea wasn't so much a contest as a learning experience. The AI bots needed more info on what and how to deal with imperfect information. The whole field of AI lacks in this area. At the halfway point in the contest it looked like the bots were holding their own. During the break, the pros gathered their wits about them and took control.
Eventually this technology will spread though the young guys programming cult, and will end up in a bot capable of +ROI real money poker against live online players.
It is one of the reasons private tourneys, such as the ones here, are much better than the anonymous tourneys in the world.
I for one would welcome a site regularly REQUIRING something in the chat box from each player at a table. At bare minimum it would help slow down an infusion of bots.
They are real, they are here, and better ones are coming!
Monoxide
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Lol I wouldnt be too worried, poker is ALOT of luck and you cannot control cards.... beleive it or not, but bots cannot control the cards either.
I would see them as an exploitable money maker. I Hope that noobs try to set them up against me, then ill rob their bots blind.
This is no-limit im talking about.
Limit holdem... well thats another story, im sure you could make a bot for that... and it would be good...
I would see them as an exploitable money maker. I Hope that noobs try to set them up against me, then ill rob their bots blind.
This is no-limit im talking about.
Limit holdem... well thats another story, im sure you could make a bot for that... and it would be good...
NineLions
Advanced beginner
Silver Level
University of Alberta, but the right country. 
If you go to their forum there's some interesting discussions about things like how to program to "scrape", that is, how to extract data from the screen for input into whatever program you're planning to run.
If you go to their forum there's some interesting discussions about things like how to program to "scrape", that is, how to extract data from the screen for input into whatever program you're planning to run.
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DeadMoneyDad
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Just because a player is multi-tablings doesn't make them a bot. They are almost certainly using software to assist their play.
A better way to tell if a bot is involved it to see how often the person plays. Bots tend to play longer hours.
The problems the poker sites face is it is very hard to distingush between bots and software assisted player. The reasoning is there is nothing in the T&C to keep you from using software assistance. The only violation is not having a human click the buttons. The sites can't make a person chat or any other type of "proof" of human involvement.
As long as there is enough human "evidence", i.e. drivers lisc., utilities bills, etc. You can run as many accounts from a master server controling a number of machines each playing seperate accounts multi-tabling up to the site's limit of tables.
You don't even have to play a software poker strategy that plays "winning" poker. Most bots and "semi-bots" make the majority of their income from rakeback deals.
Many players don't mind bot players because once identified their poker strategy can be exploited for a nice profit. However most player find the thought of bots or semi-bots to be cheating. I tend to agree.
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royalburrito24
Legend
Silver Level
Just look at Hevad Khan (i believe my spelling is correct) who recently finished 6th in the 2007 Main Event
i think he plays on poker stars and he has a youtube video where he played 26 sit and goes at once....or something like that
here it is:
YouTube - 26 Sit&Gos RainKhan
the thing is the sound is off and its only a bfief little clip but not everyone who multi tables hard core is a bot, they just got either a huge monitor or they are rainkhan
i think he plays on poker stars and he has a youtube video where he played 26 sit and goes at once....or something like that
here it is:
YouTube - 26 Sit&Gos RainKhan
the thing is the sound is off and its only a bfief little clip but not everyone who multi tables hard core is a bot, they just got either a huge monitor or they are rainkhan
royalburrito24
Legend
Silver Level
I completely agree
bots can never have the ability to read a situation like us because they, well, they dont have the ability to i guess...
its hard to distinguish between the bots and the humans, especially for me I guess because i have only heard about bots once or twice and I dont seem to encounter them, maybe im just not looking for it enough..
is it common for bots to be at a table or is it like 1 out of every 150 tables?
NineLions
Advanced beginner
Silver Level
Have you tried any of these bot programs, AG? Or know anyone that has?
I keep thinking that with a scraping program, one should be able to program a decision tree that comes out ahead, at least at low levels.
Me_Tom
Rising Star
Bronze Level
rob5775
Legend
Silver Level
Or you can pay me a small fee, feed me beer, and I will sit at your computer playing poker. I like to think of myself as a drunk poker playing machine. Just hide your wifes and girlfriends when I am over.
Q
quads
Rock Star
Silver Level
To me, the most direct threat to online poker is colluding bots. By themselves, bots are a major threat to online poker. Bot software is now available to the public at a very affordable price. Enough people already know about and use these bots. The reason bots are a threat is because it’s not too hard to code a bot that will beat the small games, both limit and no limit. Small games are the lifeblood of the poker economy and the $100 losses at $2-$4 are ultimately what feed the $1,000-$2,000 games at the top - pyramid style. In a normal small stakes game, incompetent players fill most of the seats, and the few good players “shear the sheep,” as it were, taking their cut, but leaving most of the money floating around. Bots, however, have the capability to be in hundreds of games simultaneously. Eventually they will “skin the sheep.” They will continue to expand and fill seats until someone stops them, or until it’s no longer profitable. If the bots are making no money, then it means the cardroom is getting its rake, the good players are getting a tiny bit, and the bad players are getting slaughtered. They’ll quit. And without their money, the whole online poker pyramid will collapse. Bots are quite literally the cancer of online poker. They will multiply until they have killed their victim or until someone contains them. Bot software allows users to create their own AI and plug it into the bot framework. Hundreds of great poker minds are working right now to develop better AIs.
More threatening still is colluding bots. Bots can communicate with other bots and share hole cards. Say someone writes a colluding bot and sits it in three seats of a game. The bots share hole cards with each other and instantly adjust their strategies based on the extra knowledge. A well-coded bot of this type would be extremely formidable even to strong players. If poker sites want to survive and keep their pot-o-gold running into the next decade, they need to tackle the bot problem head on. They have adopted some counter-measures. There’s no iron-clad solution. Bots can run remotely so the bot software is entirely undetectable on the client machine. Poker clients would have to ban the use of all sorts of macroing and other automated input programs to stop it, but the “bleeding edge” botters will always be one step ahead. In fact, the botters could reduce their footprint on the client machine to nearly zero. They could run the bot on a separate computer. The bot could simply suggest plays (informed with the hole cards of other bots) on that computer, and a hired person could execute the plays in real time on the client machine. The hired player could respond to chat, enter captchas, and otherwise appear like a completely normal player. This could be done in workshop-style offices on a large scale in places like Eastern Europe where kids can be hired very cheaply. The only recourse the cardrooms would have is the labor-intensive collusion detection available to them. If the botters collude “smartly,” (they don’t collude every hand, but “mix it up” to use poker terms), they could escape detection for quite a while. Lest you think this is far-fetched, such workshops already exist in China to play online computer games and sell virtual property. Every honest poker player, should know what the threats are and exactly what you might be up against when you play online poker.
Professional collusion teams another topic for another thread.
More threatening still is colluding bots. Bots can communicate with other bots and share hole cards. Say someone writes a colluding bot and sits it in three seats of a game. The bots share hole cards with each other and instantly adjust their strategies based on the extra knowledge. A well-coded bot of this type would be extremely formidable even to strong players. If poker sites want to survive and keep their pot-o-gold running into the next decade, they need to tackle the bot problem head on. They have adopted some counter-measures. There’s no iron-clad solution. Bots can run remotely so the bot software is entirely undetectable on the client machine. Poker clients would have to ban the use of all sorts of macroing and other automated input programs to stop it, but the “bleeding edge” botters will always be one step ahead. In fact, the botters could reduce their footprint on the client machine to nearly zero. They could run the bot on a separate computer. The bot could simply suggest plays (informed with the hole cards of other bots) on that computer, and a hired person could execute the plays in real time on the client machine. The hired player could respond to chat, enter captchas, and otherwise appear like a completely normal player. This could be done in workshop-style offices on a large scale in places like Eastern Europe where kids can be hired very cheaply. The only recourse the cardrooms would have is the labor-intensive collusion detection available to them. If the botters collude “smartly,” (they don’t collude every hand, but “mix it up” to use poker terms), they could escape detection for quite a while. Lest you think this is far-fetched, such workshops already exist in China to play online computer games and sell virtual property. Every honest poker player, should know what the threats are and exactly what you might be up against when you play online poker.
Professional collusion teams another topic for another thread.
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DrRaleigh
Rising Star
Bronze Level
That was a very succinct explanation concerning this troublesome proliferation of online bots. Especially problematic is the idea of collusion regarding these leeches. I have played on sites at which I have felt almost certain were employing these colluding bots, or at the very least playing host to them. It didn't necessarily hinder my ability to make money in the long run, but as you pointed out, the "sheep" so to speak will not remain nearly as plentiful should these bots be allowed to invade exponentially.
Personally, I will no longer play online for high stakes. This is not only because of a concern over these bots, but also due to the suspicious nature of these so-called "RNG's" that very often seem to be anything but random.
I've logged a fairly substantial amount of "live" hours during the past ten years, and in that time I have rarely seen the kind of boards that you will find on a regular basis at many online cardrooms. When you are able to find trends or patterns, it's very difficult to believe that what you're seeing is truly random. But I suppose that's an entirely different topic which has been and will continue to be discussed at length. At any rate, I just thought I would contribute my two cents on this matter while commending Quads on a very well-written post.
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bbd7777
Enthusiast
Silver Level
thanks a lot giuys what an awesome thread... i have always thought they must have poker programs out there... too much money out there not to... i have learned a lot playing online and am actually considering moving to a place close to a live casino so i can start playing live. I think a lot of players are using assistance of software and it sucks
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
Monoxide
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
No not never....eventually...but it sure as hell wont happen for awhile lol.
Think about it, its been like, years. Why is it not done yet? Nah it wouldnt take 5+ years to make.
Makes me believe its just not possible... yet
Think about it, its been like, years. Why is it not done yet? Nah it wouldnt take 5+ years to make.
Makes me believe its just not possible... yet
Q
quads
Rock Star
Silver Level
No not never....eventually...but it sure as hell wont happen for awhile lol.
Think about it, its been like, years. Why is it not done yet? Nah it wouldnt take 5+ years to make.
Makes me believe its just not possible... yet
Bots, being able to dominate poker is improbable. But the programing, as evolved drastically in the last few years. Their presence is being felt much more recently, and should only improve just like all other software programs do. ( such as the popular PT, etc.) Bots, can cause much more serious problems in the near future if their not defeated soon.
C
craigh
Rising Star
Bronze Level
ofcourse these bots exist
ive got lot experience of people betting big on poor hole cards ie K3 A3 even occasionly 93 they bet big before flop and all; way through when i started with r big pair and sometimes ive got two pair too and ofcourse they n always hit their second pair on weak kicker or get trips its how often they manage to hit they dio it rtegularly they have to be using a bot to know what others are holding and to know whats going to come on board somebody in another thread said he just avoids bot users but how can you when you are in a tournament and the site chooses table and resits you at new one for you im at a site at moment which is inundated with bot users cancelled my subscription so as they couldnt charge me after trial period but ive went back and am reporting names of suspected bot players to be looked into but there are so many might have to give up that too and leave site again i believe though opfcourse difficult to prove that almost all popker sites dont give a s* if anyone cheats or not and will do v little to get rid of them its because of how they make their money they want as many people as poss at their tables ie more pots played in the more they get their percentage from i think ive seen peoplwe cheating and ripping me and others off on several sites (and most sites have their hqs based offshore on some island or in another country with bad law enforcement) its not just to avoid tax it also means they are not subject to US or UK law but even if they were it depends the extent effort those authorities are willing to go to regulate them and it prob doesnt affect amount of people on these sites either if they do f all to remove cheating s* because most people arent bright enough to spot cheats anyway and most will think if you say anything about it that you are paranoid but its not paranoia how come people win (the key here is how often they doso if they win over and over with rubbish?) so often with absolutely incredibly c r a p hole cards its cos they must be using bot i think the pnly way to attempt to get a staright game is to play in rl and dont go on these sites at all cos money is the most important thing to these sites/ the more people they have on their sites the more pots are played and more they take their % fromthey dont care if the people are conning others or not
ive got lot experience of people betting big on poor hole cards ie K3 A3 even occasionly 93 they bet big before flop and all; way through when i started with r big pair and sometimes ive got two pair too and ofcourse they n always hit their second pair on weak kicker or get trips its how often they manage to hit they dio it rtegularly they have to be using a bot to know what others are holding and to know whats going to come on board somebody in another thread said he just avoids bot users but how can you when you are in a tournament and the site chooses table and resits you at new one for you im at a site at moment which is inundated with bot users cancelled my subscription so as they couldnt charge me after trial period but ive went back and am reporting names of suspected bot players to be looked into but there are so many might have to give up that too and leave site again i believe though opfcourse difficult to prove that almost all popker sites dont give a s* if anyone cheats or not and will do v little to get rid of them its because of how they make their money they want as many people as poss at their tables ie more pots played in the more they get their percentage from i think ive seen peoplwe cheating and ripping me and others off on several sites (and most sites have their hqs based offshore on some island or in another country with bad law enforcement) its not just to avoid tax it also means they are not subject to US or UK law but even if they were it depends the extent effort those authorities are willing to go to regulate them and it prob doesnt affect amount of people on these sites either if they do f all to remove cheating s* because most people arent bright enough to spot cheats anyway and most will think if you say anything about it that you are paranoid but its not paranoia how come people win (the key here is how often they doso if they win over and over with rubbish?) so often with absolutely incredibly c r a p hole cards its cos they must be using bot i think the pnly way to attempt to get a staright game is to play in rl and dont go on these sites at all cos money is the most important thing to these sites/ the more people they have on their sites the more pots are played and more they take their % fromthey dont care if the people are conning others or not
Blazing_Saddler
Rock Star
Silver Level
They wont. They may well be very good at Limit poker,which is a lot more maths based. At No Limit, if a player is watching closely, they would be able to read a bot in no time, and crucify it I would think.
I am sure they will get better and better, but that is what we are all striving to do.