POKER BOT INVASION...

Saw this on MSNBC


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6002298/


Very interesting... You will have to copy and past this link cause Im too dumb to make it clickable...

Not a very long article. Most people who have been around a while know that there are bots playing. Although they arent allowed, they are still relatively easy to beat. The basics of the bots are that they play a set level of hands (therefore you can figure them out easily with poker tracking software) and it would be very hard to program a computer to bluff. Overall, until someone creates really advanced AI I wouldnt be too worried about bots, especially since they cling to micro limits.

zzzaacckk said:

Not a very long article. Most people who have been around a while know that there are bots playing. Although they arent allowed, they are still relatively easy to beat. The basics of the bots are that they play a set level of hands (therefore you can figure them out easily with poker tracking software) and it would be very hard to program a computer to bluff. Overall, until someone creates really advanced AI I wouldnt be too worried about bots, especially since they cling to micro limits.

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Yeah but thats where Im playing now... Guess I better work on my bank roll in tourney land...

This article is from '04. Also if a simple algorithm can beat me at poker, I think I'll quit. If there's some algorithm that can beat poker what's to stop the average person from just running it and making their decisions based on that? Good solid bots have been created for HU limit HE and there is speculation that a bot to beat turbo sngs would be easy to do. Other than that, there's nothing really close to a bot being able to beat NLHE at any decent level.

Bots are very beatable,

If you can't beat a bot I suggest you stop playing cause

against real online players you will get smoked

just IMO cheers

There's more to a bot than just firing it up and letting it do it's thing, these days. A lot of the recent bots come with a profile function.
Decent poker players who also happen to be decent programmers test run their bot profiles and tweak where necessary to produce "winning" bots.

Also, those that are not programmers but are decent poker players and use these types of bots will test run and tweak the profiles into "winning" bots. So much so that they will often then sell their successful profiles to fellow bot users for decent amounts of money.

There are what you might want to call run of the mill bots out there, but there are also ones that have been tweaked, tested, and graphed and once shown to be successful, sold on to other bot users.

This all sounds very interesting. I guess they gennerally play in Heads up compitition. Thats good I never play that. I agree, I think it would be hard to teach a bot to bluff. Not too worried.

i read somewhere that bots only played limit games,
and you could avoid them compleatly by playing no-limit holdem.
i dont know for sure if this is true tho.
has anyone else heard this ?

Dank Hugh said:

i read somewhere that bots only played limit games,
and you could avoid them compleatly by playing no-limit holdem.
i dont know for sure if this is true tho.
has anyone else heard this ?

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Maybe it was true once upon a time but it's certainly not the case now. Many bots out there now support cash games, tournaments, and sit and go's, in NL, PL, and FL formats.

The bots were, at least a few months ago only playing fixed limit heads up. And they did pretty well, at least against avarage players.
But to play a full ring game, or to try to build a bot that can play no limit or pot limit is a totaly different thing.
Journalists often love to write articles about the big treat from "the bots", and they usally manage to add a quote from some poker pro in the article, but do they ever ask the computer programmers who build these programs?

Another thing that people who has ever played against a chess computer, or similar must have noticed is that they get very predictable after a while.
Sure they are strong opponents the first couple of games, but one month later u will be sure to beat the bot.

Crystal Blue said:

Maybe it was true once upon a time but it's certainly not the case now. Many bots out there now support cash games, tournaments, and sit and go's, in NL, PL, and FL formats.

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Where are you getting your info? fwiw all the major sites at least have decent bot-detection measures (in fact FTP went too far and banned some legit accounts). As I mentioned, I'd love to play a bot in NLHE deep cash.

only_bridge said:

The bots were, at least a few months ago only playing fixed limit heads up. And they did pretty well, at least against avarage players.
But to play a full ring game, or to try to build a bot that can play no limit or pot limit is a totaly different thing.

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Well, the fact is certain bots have been playing more than just FL HU for some time now. A lot longer than just a few months ago too.

jroyfus said:

Bots are very beatable...

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You are completely right to an extent. Any of the bots that I have known about playing are completely beatable by damn near anyone. All you have to do is sit in and watch a game for about 15-20 hands and you can pick out which ones are some of the worse bots.
They don't change their play at all with certain hands.
Most of them re-buyin for the same exact amount every time because of the default on their bot program(especially if controlled by the same person).

Now I do think that there probably are some super-secret bots out there that are geniusly programmed that even some of the more advanced players couldn't pick out, but very few. Who knows though, everyday people get smarter and smarter, I'm sure there is more to come. Hopefully the casinos can find some more deterrents against them.

zachvac said:

Where are you getting your info? fwiw all the major sites at least have decent bot-detection measures (in fact FTP went too far and banned some legit accounts). As I mentioned, I'd love to play a bot in NLHE deep cash.

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During that blondini9 bot thread I took it upon myself to find out some information about bots. Up to that point I was very much like the majority of us and only knew a small amount about bots at best.
I was off work at the time ( just as well because of the amount of worthless stuff I found I had to weed through once I started ) and made the best use of google I possibly could.

I even considered starting a thread on the subject after finding out some eye opening things about bots and what seems to be a much bigger culture than many of us could have imagined.
I said as much at the very end of that blondini9 thread and also stated that I was very much in 2 minds whether or not to go ahead with it.
I guess this thread kind of saved me the hassle of it all really. I gathered a lot of information in the end and trust me when I tell you it took me a LONG time to obtain the valid facts and not just the rubbish or hearsay.

Everything that I learned and might touch on in the course of this thread if the situation arises will be 100% fact only and is definitely obtainable though extensive google searches.

I was under the impression that Polaris was the most sophisticated bot out there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris_(poker_bot)

Polaris is still only a limit holdem bot.. no-limit is still a long way off.

Polaris, although a poker bot, is part of a research project into Artificial Intelligence.

Poker is an interesting way to investigate AI, because poker is a game of incomplete information and thus forces the machine to act without all of the necessary information.. hence its use in AI

Stu_Ungar said:

I was under the impression that Polaris was the most sophisticated bot out there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris_(poker_bot)

Polaris is still only a limit holdem bot.. no-limit is still a long way off.

Polaris, although a poker bot, is part of a research project into Artificial Intelligence.

Poker is an interesting way to investigate AI, because poker is a game of incomplete information and thus forces the machine to act without all of the necessary information.. hence its use in AI

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I can inform you that you are very much mistaken if you are under the impression that, quote " no-limit is still a long way off".

EDIT: My findings don't involve Polaris

Just to clarify.. by no limit being a long way off.. I mean that a successfully no-limit bot is a long way off. I'm very sure that no-limit bots can be programmed.. but are the successful?

Can you post some links to the the facts that you discovered.

I have known for some time that the bot-culture was fairly big.. some botters claiming to run 'bot farms'

However the general response by members is.. yes bot exist, but their standard of play is quite beatable provided you can actually play poker.

Stu_Ungar said:

Just to clarify.. by no limit being a long way off.. I mean that a successfully no-limit bot is a long way off. I'm very sure that no-limit bots can be programmed.. but are the successful?

Can you post some links to the the facts that you discovered.

I have known for some time that the bot-culture was fairly big.. some botters claiming to run 'bot farms'

However the general response by members is.. yes bot exist, but their standard of play is quite beatable provided you can actually play poker.

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I won't be posting any links until such a time as Nick and Nick only gives me permission to do so.
The biggest problem I have with posting any links is that most if not all of them would be against Cardschat rules. Furthermore, they would most certainly be the sort of links that would inadvertently be advertising unscrupulous web sites etc.

I have saved some of the links that will direct you to bot selling forums, a lot of the juicy factual stuff can be found within those forums. There will be a lot of reading to wade through but the facts are definitely in there.

There were a lot of reasons why I was still undecided in starting a thread on the subject because I felt that a lot of what people would be requesting and insisting on could only be proved by substantial linking.
Another reason would of been the prospect of possibly being treated with a lack of respect without those links.

One particular thread at one of the bot forums ( I would have to find the actual thread as I didn't save/link it at the time ) involves one of their members selling a profile for $1000 at a time. This was someone who purchased a readily available bot ( from that site ) and tweaked the profile within that bot and sold on the setting changes he had made to it. A common practice within that community, I found out.

Stu_Ungar said:

Just to clarify.. by no limit being a long way off.. I mean that a successfully no-limit bot is a long way off. I'm very sure that no-limit bots can be programmed.. but are the successful?

Can you post some links to the the facts that you discovered.

I have known for some time that the bot-culture was fairly big.. some botters claiming to run 'bot farms'

However the general response by members is.. yes bot exist, but their standard of play is quite beatable provided you can actually play poker.

Click to expand...

Here is an interesting and reasonably current (13 November, 2008)article from New Scientist regarding the Polaris "bot" specifically and bots in general, including thoughts from developers of the Polaris program.

http://www.newscientist.com/article...-bots-raise-the-stakes-for-human-players.html

One excerpt regarding computational power stands out:

"The larger the number of possible states in a game, the more memory a computer needs to run its calculations. In 2005 the Alberta group developed new algorithms capable of handling 10 billion game states, up from the previous best of 100 million. The latest algorithms can handle 1000 billion states. But even heads-up, limit hold 'em has around a billion billion (10 to the 18th power; i.e. 10 followed by 18 zeroes) permutations."

I would ask where the average bot user might access something with the kind of computational power of the IBM Roadrunner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Roadrunner a one of a kind supercomputer located at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New mexico which currently is the world's fastest computer AND access to the Polaris Program, which I assume the University of Alberta isn't selling on eBay, as it took them 16 years to develop it.

A Google search is maddening, as the term "poker bots" returns 483,000 hits and, of the first 30 (as far as I had the patience to go), the vast majority are either "reviews"; i.e. touts, outfits trying to sell you one, or, in at least one case, what appear to be programming instructions to build one (I have no idea, my programming "skills" are limited to one very dated class in BASIC; one elderly Pascal class; and one fairly recent class in Visual Basic), including the justification that "it will make you a better poker player".

Are bots out there? Certainly. Are they as good as Crystal Blue insinuates without sources or references? I think not. Will they get there? Probably. But, to quote Michael Bowling, leader of the U of A Computer Poker Research Group, "It'll happen within my lifetime. It could be five years, or 50."

I, for one, am not going to lose any sleep over it.

The IBM Roadrunner certainly looks fast.. but I wonder what its vista score is LOL

Who cares about bots, its the donkeys I'm watching !! lol

A few things I found out about bots and bot users.................

One recently abandoned forum has just under 28,000 registered members.
It's webmaster, leader, coder, "hero" appears to have vanished, all of his followers have not heard from his since around Christmas time.

Most of these bot s/w packages come with "life time" support, so you can imagine the pain when GOD disappeared LOL.
GODS name is/was Simon, some members still post their spasmodically calling out in vain for Simon.

Simon isn't his regular online name, it's his BOT online name. All members at that forum are very strongly advised not to use their own names, they are told to make up a brand new, never used before name that has no connection to their poker site/forum names.

Bot forums are no different to poker forums in respect to how everyday happenings occur. They are a group of people with a common interest who discuss strategies etc on a daily basis.

Use google and see for yourself, type in "poker bots" and search through a few links until you find a bot selling website that also includes a forum within that link/website. You might be surprised.

Bots like AP/UB and FTP the most. Once you have done your google search and found what you are looking for you will see that for yourself.
Don't think for one moment I making this up or picking on certain poker sites for no reason, google is your friend, use it.

These members and buyers of bot s/w are also strongly advised never to share their online poker site names with each other, never to post screenshots which include their own poker site names and likewise with HH's. They don't want you to get busted see.

When poker sites update their software, so do bot programmer/coders. they are usually back up to speed and good to go within 24 hours in most cases. Their customers can then update their bot s/w because of the "life time" support that came with their purchase.

That will do for now, and remember, google is your friend.

I don't think these poker bots pose any threat to anyone who has any real skill in the game, but at micro tables where you can find some bad players I'm sure some people have lost money to these things.

zachvac said:

This article is from '04. Also if a simple algorithm can beat me at poker, I think I'll quit. If there's some algorithm that can beat poker what's to stop the average person from just running it and making their decisions based on that? Good solid bots have been created for HU limit HE and there is speculation that a bot to beat turbo sngs would be easy to do. Other than that, there's nothing really close to a bot being able to beat NLHE at any decent level.

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When I first seen the article just now, I was like "this is super old"

Wasnt worried then, still not worried now