PLEASE Help Me Get To The Next Level

J

jackdonkey1717

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I've officially gotten good enough an N/L Hold 'Em to get "close", but I can't quite get to the next level. I hardly ever get knocked out early. I start conservitive unless I have the nuts. Once my chip stack is larger than the other players at my table, then I can start making a few bluffs after already getting good reads on all the players at my table.

Then when I get close to the cut I do one of 2 things: Play conservitive until I make the cut, or make a stupid mistake and just miss the cut.

Two examples that just happened today. 7500 person tournament which pays the top 45. I have 245,000 chips and am in 3rd place with 61 people to go. I EASILY make it to the final table (or at least close) if I just stop playing all-together. I make the cut & there are 44 people left and I'm down to 188,000 chips, in 19th place but could still easily place into better money if I hardly play at all. I get king, five in the hole. Flop comes King, five, three. I go all-in. WHY? So stupid? A 20,000 bet would have been smart and I know it...but I do this to myself all the time and CAN'T force myself to stop. Guy with larger stack calls me with pocket kings...game over!

2nd thing that happened today (smaller tournament) Paid top 9. With 16 people to go I'm in 3rd place with 13,000 chips. 4th place has 9,000 chips. 9th place (the money spot) has 6,000 chips. Chip leader has 16,000 chips. Again a scenario where I'm guaranteed a spot at the final table if I practically stop playing all-together. I slow play a set of jacks, trying to milk it and make more money, instead of scaring everyone away. I let a guy river a straight on me which dropped me to 13th place. I didn't even get into the money.

Final point and questions are: I'm good enough to get "close", which means with one or two adjustments I'd be good enough to get all the way. Who can give me advice on self control/strategies/smarter ways to play hands at those points in the tournaments, etc?

Thanks in advance,

Todd
 
thunder1276

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My first question is why do you have K5 vs KK in the first place? If he didnt raise pre flop then there really isnt anything you can do about this. with top two pair you may end up all in anyway. also from the first example, with 61 people left you still have a very long way to go so to make it to the final table you would have to keep building your stack. to give you an idea of what kind of stack you need to even make the final table. multiply the starting stack by the number of entrants and divide by 9. 1500*7500=11,250,000 11,250,000/9 is 1,250,000. this means that the average stack when you make it to the final table is going to be 1,250,000. I know it feels like you have come a long way after outlasting over 7400 people but this is when it gets really tough. when you get to this point you are going to have to take some risks to have a stack big enough to make the final table. another word of caution, it is dangerous to slow play. you should really only do this on dry boards that dont have alot of straight or flush draws, especially if you flop something as vulnerable as a set. I know it feels strong but something as easy to make as a straight beats it. so it looks like some one may have a draw you should just bet out. It is better to win a small pot than to lose a big one.
 
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thunder1276

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this should also be in the tournament section. you would probably get more/ better responses if it was there.
 
absoluthamm

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You need to stop playing crap hands and stop slowplaying. K5 shouldn't have been in that position to begin with, it should have been folded, there are a lot of other hands that you can wait for to make a move.

As far as slowplaying...you should take this out of your toolbox for now unless you KNOW that your opponent is aggressive across all streets. Just giving free cards is going to kill you and you're not adding anything to the pot when you have the best hand. It constantly cracks me up when I see someone whining about how their premium hand lost to 67o because they checked it down only to bet big on the turn or river when their opponent made their hand for free.
 
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Thank you

All very good advice that will be taken to heart, and all future such questions will be posted in the Tournaments section. Stop slow playing too, got it. Also (not that it matters) but I was big blind when I had the king five in the hole and I only got "called" by one guy. Flop comes king, five, five....he didn't raise me pre-flop (understandably I guess, excepting being afraid of an ace...I might have made a larger bet (not all in) with pocket kings. So that was the predicament I was in. Not defending myself, but you see I was in a tough spot. No reason in the world for me not to believe I had the nuts at that point...or so I thought.

Thanks all.
 
absoluthamm

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After explaining the hand like that it makes sense, but you stated the hand differently in the first post. The first post you said the flop was K53 and the last one you said K55. K55 I understand your play, but K53 I don't. Not that you don't have a good hand, but:
1. you could be easily dominated(you never mentioned suits, so what were the flush outs?)
2. You're sitting pretty, so why put so much at stake for what is at the time a meaningless pot?
 
Stu_Ungar

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All very good advice that will be taken to heart, and all future such questions will be posted in the Tournaments section. Stop slow playing too, got it. Also (not that it matters) but I was big blind when I had the king five in the hole and I only got "called" by one guy. Flop comes king, five, five....he didn't raise me pre-flop (understandably I guess, excepting being afraid of an ace...I might have made a larger bet (not all in) with pocket kings. So that was the predicament I was in. Not defending myself, but you see I was in a tough spot. No reason in the world for me not to believe I had the nuts at that point...or so I thought.

Thanks all.

Back to this K5.

Did you raise or call from the BB or was the pot limped and so you checked?

If the pot was limped and you didnt put any money in, then its fine, but if you called ANY bet OOP with K5, that was a huge mistake.
 
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Same story, different night

52 person freeroll last night...pays top 6. Only $8.00 for first, down to $1.50 for 6th, but what the heck it's free money right? I'm chip leader with 14 people to go...13,000 chips. 2nd place has 9000 chips. 6th place (cut line) has 5400 chips. I finish 10th. I do this EVERY night and can't stop. I'm officially retarded. Off to read your responses now to hopefully get advice...or perhaps therapy is needed.
 
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jackdonkey1717

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I think because of...

2. You're sitting pretty, so why put so much at stake for what is at the time a meaningless pot?

"Greed" I believe must be the answer. Same reason I finished 10th last night when I was easily in the money and the prime candidate for winner. I guess I just wanted "more".
 
Stu_Ungar

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52 person freeroll last night...pays top 6. Only $8.00 for first, down to $1.50 for 6th, but what the heck it's free money right? I'm chip leader with 14 people to go...13,000 chips. 2nd place has 9000 chips. 6th place (cut line) has 5400 chips. I finish 10th. I do this EVERY night and can't stop. I'm officially retarded. Off to read your responses now to hopefully get advice...or perhaps therapy is needed.

10th place is good.

You have to bear in mind that a huge winning tournament player still loses the vast majority of tournaments he plays.

People have a false perception of how often a good player actually wins.
 
Sysvr4

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10th place is good.
You have to bear in mind that a huge winning tournament player still loses the vast majority of tournaments he plays.
People have a false perception of how often a good player actually wins.

+1

Adding to this, how you play a particular tournament depends on so many factors as to be impossible to definitively answer in a few posts here.

What is your goal: to win, to eek into the money, to move up the ladder, etc? What are your opponents tendencies? What is your table image? What are the relative stacks? What is the blind/level structure? What are the antes/ante structure? What is the payout structure?

These are just a few of the questions which determine what kind of strategy goes into the play of any given tournament/level. Giving a couple of example hands or a particular tourney result isn't nearly enough info to say what you should or should not be doing.
 
absoluthamm

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There is no advice on the last tourney because you didn't give us any examples there, except for what Stu said. I agree with tis 100%. Many new players think that being good means that you cash in damn near every tournament you play in, but that simply is not the case, especially not anymore. 5 years ago tournament player's ROI's were so much higher than they are today just because the player pool has gotten better.

Sysvr4 hit on a good point that I talk about to people all of the time. Your ultimate goal is to win as much as possible. If you are playing to try to just squeak into the money, then you are wasting your time. The only time you should be playing to just get in the money is if it's a satellite and it's a flat payout structure. In that case, your main goal is always to push your +EV edges and accumulate chips because you need them to win.

OP, you need to research ICM and learn how to apply that to your endgame play. You seem to be opening up your range way too much in the later part of the tournament, when you should be protecting your stack and taking advantage where you have a positive edge.
 
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But it's killing me

10th place is good.

You have to bear in mind that a huge winning tournament player still loses the vast majority of tournaments he plays.

People have a false perception of how often a good player actually wins.

Today I finished 104th in a 900 person tourney that paid the top 81
Today I finished 7th in a 25 person tourney that paid the top 3
Today I finished 8th in a 30 person tourney that paid the top 4
Today I finished 60th in a 7500 person tourney that paid the top 45
Today I finished 44th in a 7500 person tourney that paid the top 45...
...won a whopping $0.90 for that one
And to top things off in the Rush tourney I finished 400th out of 7500, but I was in the top 10 when I went out. I had the nut straight and completely missed seeing three diamonds on the board.

I'm "almost" there, but not quite, and it's very frustrating.

So I hear what you're saying when you say 10th place is good, but I should have finished in the money in ALL these tourneys, and in some of them I should have finished pretty high up. But at the end of the day it's just $0.90!!!!!!!!!!!! Damnit I need to learn a few more things, pay more attention, be less greedy, and have more patience.

Thanks folks for the feedback.
 
Stu_Ungar

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Today I finished 104th in a 900 person tourney that paid the top 81
Today I finished 7th in a 25 person tourney that paid the top 3
Today I finished 8th in a 30 person tourney that paid the top 4
Today I finished 60th in a 7500 person tourney that paid the top 45
Today I finished 44th in a 7500 person tourney that paid the top 45...
...won a whopping $0.90 for that one
And to top things off in the Rush tourney I finished 400th out of 7500, but I was in the top 10 when I went out. I had the nut straight and completely missed seeing three diamonds on the board.

I'm "almost" there, but not quite, and it's very frustrating.

So I hear what you're saying when you say 10th place is good, but I should have finished in the money in ALL these tourneys, and in some of them I should have finished pretty high up. But at the end of the day it's just $0.90!!!!!!!!!!!! Damnit I need to learn a few more things, pay more attention, be less greedy, and have more patience.

Thanks folks for the feedback.

Why?
 
absoluthamm

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No you shouldn't have finished ITM in all of these tourneys, you completely missed the point that we made. Even the best tournament players aren't going to finish in the money in even half of the tournaments that they play.
 
noW

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No you shouldn't have finished ITM in all of these tourneys, you completely missed the point that we made. Even the best tournament players aren't going to finish in the money in even half of the tournaments that they play.

Poker is about long term, you will never win everything at poker because that's what makes it so cool! ... nobody can win all their tournaments they play!

Its all about how much you lose and how much you win!
If the profit is +... then you are on a good way,
If its -10$ then means you need some advice/learn/bad luck/etc.
:santaclau
 
nc_royals

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The one thing I'd say about slowplaying hands is be selective when doing that. If my stack is health I almost never slowplay (especially against stacks similar to mine).

The one instance I might slowplay is if my stack is approaching say 15BB or less. In that case I know Im going to have to make a move soon and I might risk someone sucking out for the chance to double or triple up.
 
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