Playing Poker Professionally

This will be our Forum Challenge strategy discussion for Week 4 in January. Everyone is welcome to participate in this discussion even if not taking part in the challenge.

Please read this article and discuss it:

Playing Poker Professionally

We get a lot of members coming to the forum asking if they should quit their jobs and become pros. I always tell them no.

Being a professional poker player sounds fun and exciting - but very few players actually make enough profit to make a living from it.

I will be interested to hear what our pro - Ryan LaPlante (Protential) - has to say about this.

I think that playing poker for a living, would be a lot harder than people think. I know we see players on TV, making vast sums of money, but ask yourself how often do they cash, or how often do they blow up. I know there is a difference between cash and tournament play, and I expect there are a lot of pro's who play both. Unless it is a TV event, we hardly hear about the money made from "cash games". (Unless of course your name is Isildur), and even he takes some big blows sometimes.

Myself I am a strictly a tournament player, and I would say on tournaments, if you are lucky to cash 20% of the time, you are doing really well.

However, if someone like Daniel Negreanu (probably spelt that wrong) can you imagine if he cashed 20% of the time, and his average buy-in is just (taking a minimum to show my point) $50K - How many tournaments does he play a year? Not difficult to find the answer, but looking at his cashes for 2017, he cashed 20 times in 2017, so effectively I reckon 20% of the time he cashed, so 80 times he did not? 80 * 50K = $4M in losses? Now before anyone quotes me, this is a quick search of google, and probably incorrect figures, but can you imagine, this is a man at the top of his game, and yes - he knows what he is earning, but going forward to 2018, he needs to make sure, if he follows BRM rules, using the 3% rule in any one tournament, he would need to have a BR of $1.6M, before he starts, now, I expect he is sponsored by pokerstars, and they pay a lot of his entrance fees, and he has other bonuses.


As the above is only an example, and obviously far above what a lot of us play, but I think, without including his costs of travel, real life costs, etc I think if I had his money, I would find it frightening - I bet even the great Daniel, must have some nightmares if he ever lays down and works it out. The life looks great, but unless you have a very understanding family, have a love of travel, and love sleeping in hotels, it is not for you.


Finally, before I send you asleep, I would love to be a professional player, but at my BR level, unless I hit it big one day, (guaranteed, to bink the Sunday storm in 2018, btw), I would just have to dream, and hope one day it comes true.

I would love to be a professional player, but as in many careers ,it takes more then a few months, more like years to gain full stratedgies, players movements at tables,a complete knowledge of your game Then we need the bankroll, and maybe backers, but backers are only going to put $$ in, if they have confidence in getting a return
The thoughts of being a pro , being profitable ,are like winning a lottery and loosing can be even more devasting to a persons life and financial well, Saying that stress can be overwhelming to a persons health
For me its a dream , a good dream,one i have had over and over again,but if i would win a major tourny on stars i might use 20% of the winnings in a hi-rollers without any stress as i wud look at it as free money

For me personally, poker is a hobby. to become a professional you need to be able to suffer defeat and have a big bankroll. also my idea that in online poker, the professional will not become.

professional qualifications

Do you believe there is a different set of qual for online versus face to face. odds same but reads are different IMHO

"We get a lot of members coming to the forum asking if they should quit their jobs and become pros. I always tell them no.
Being a professional poker player sounds fun and exciting - but very few players actually make enough profit to make a living from it."I think this is were you should really think for yourself and not ask questions of that sort. I live in a country were you can live (not survive) for give or take 300-500$(depending on the city and so on, obvsl. small countryside will be cheaper and big cities will cost more) this is more than doeble at ABI5 or nl5 I mean any limit +) ANY!
on the other hand if you are living in LA or NY you really cant make money with something that does not have a "mid" or higher in the name.
And again you have to wthink about this how is this proffesion (?if) is suioted for you as you !will! have loosing month no matter the skill level

I'm a winning hobby player. I know when I go to Vegas and play for 4-5 days in a row or so that I'm ready to take a break. I currently play seriously live about 3-4 times per month (typically 6-8 hour sessions) and that is enough (and some micros online, but not for meaningful stakes). I love to study it and keep it as a hobby. I'm always trying to improve my game. But, I know that I don't like it enough to do it full-time. It's just not rewarding enough to me and doesn't fulfill me.

The article seems to be mostly related to multi-tabling online cash tables. However, live tournament play is hugely different. I don't think I would ever attempt to be an online cash table pro. That would be WAY too much work, with no real FUN upside. Plus, everybody at your level is following mostly the same rules/paradigms, so the chances of coming out ahead are astronomically low.

Live tournament play, on the other hand can and should be FUN. You have to have a BIG bankroll and you have to love travel. You must want to enjoy each and every locale that you visit outside of the casino. You have to like socializing with poker players (may not be as easy as it sounds at first).

While luck is not much of a factor when multi-tabling online cash tables, it's a huge factor in tournament play. You do need to be lucky enough to cash big every once in a while, and even so these will be far and few between. When you lose (i.e., most of the time) that's when you get to go skiing, or surfing, or scuba-diving, or partying, or golfing, or whatever the locale has to offer.

Matt so are you saying you must plan to loose and if you get lucky you can make the final table. It is just luck then why play, to loose?

jfitzg414 said:

Matt so are you saying you must plan to loose and if you get lucky you can make the final table. It is just luck then why play, to loose?

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It's not just luck, but luck does play a big role. If you're not financially and emotionally prepared to lose (by "lose" I mean not making it to the big money spots) most of the time, you're going to be miserable. What is the point of participating in something that makes you miserable most of the time?

I'm saying you need to be doing it for some reason other than the poker. So when you do lose, you're still having fun. When you win, you're able to have even more fun in the future. That way it's win-win.

Professionally

Where are you going to get the money if you play professionally? ... it is logical that you have to work to get money and play ... you can not hope only in freerolls ... if you are going to dedicate a professional game you have 2 things ... a lot of money in the bank and have A lot of experience playing poker.


:damnmate:

Poker is a nice and exciting game with many intense moments. It is difficult to make it profeccion. The best is to be one of our activities and let it function and interact with them and with our life. We can see this interaction if we make files of our performance and study them.

I'd prefer to win in a lottery No, seriously no! It is just devastating and you loose every day a lot, only once in a while you get a reward. I don't want to be depending on my luck at the tables, because as we have agreed, variance is existent, and up to today nobody has proofed evidence, whether they rig or not. I try to see it similar as Matt, play a lot as a hobby, and maybe one day I'll hit it big and travel to Bahamas or Jamaica, who knows? But I won't pay the travel and entry, next week I might win the 30k package, as I was first to go this week.
I made 2nd today in a 2500 field freeroll and I have even won it before, so why not aim for tournaments where you get more than 5 Euro? The day will come!!!
But I don't want to get up in the morning (or at night) one day and find out, that I HAVE TO PLAY POKER, although I can't see cards anymore ! So hobbyist with good perspectives would be my status.

To become a poker Pro or not is an individual question the answer to which largely depends on your poker skill.For me poker is a hobby.

I couldn't see myself as a pro, not now anyway.At one time I thought it could be cool to travel to different locales, but now there is just too much competition out there.
There are pros who have retired from professional poker to find a more reliable source of income, a complete reversal from when players were quitting their jobs to become pros.

the poker professional's way is not the cosmonaut's path, but they are similar, because they must be in the optimal form

i play for fun i have no ambition to be pro cause needs to be disciplined ,a good bankroll for beggining and obvisiously to be a good player too.I am wondering if poker pro is about only cash games and if that concern online games or live ones anyway poker pro its not that easy ...

In the USA, players also need to consider that healthcare and retirement benefits are often provided by employers.

Young players going pro often don't think about this, since they are usually healthy and old age seems far away.

Yeas, it`s a difficult way to become professional poker player! But tell me please what easy ways gives us our life. For example I have pedagogical education and I hardly can mention process of my education "easy way". No! It was hard job at first at school and than in university (15 years or even more).
To my mind everyone can become professional poker player! We just need to take poker as a job, but not as the game! And I`m sure, after painstaking work everyone can show good results!

I really like the article. Only if this one line can be changed a bit: " However, in my opinion those people are not truly successful professionals.". Just those 3 words make it subjective. If those can be edited out it gives it more credence to the rest of the article.

I hope to one day be pro. But it is actually a lot more demanding than the other work I've had so far. While you have off days, sick days, paid leave, health insurance, pension and other benefits the life of a poker pro is a hell of a lot more merciless.

It'd be really interesting to see Ryan's opinion on this.

I started playing online poker in 2004. It took me five years to win a wsop package without depositing. Before Black Friday hit becoming a pro was all I thought about. I was making good money on FTP and Stars on a monthly bases. I was one of the lucky ones when it came to Black Friday. About two weeks before it happened I had withdrew all my cash from FTP and Stars to take a shot at the WSOP along with my package I had won. I stayed in Vegas for twenty-one days. This was the first time I had ever been to a casino. I played my first live tourney,

emk4976 said:

I started playing online poker in 2004. It took me five years to win a WSOP package without depositing. Before Black Friday hit becoming a pro was all I thought about. I was making good money on FTP and Stars on a monthly bases. I was one of the lucky ones when it came to Black Friday. About two weeks before it happened I had withdrew all my cash from FTP and Stars to take a shot at the WSOP along with my package I had won. I stayed in Vegas for twenty-one days. This was the first time I had ever been to a casino. I played my first live tourney,

Saturday, June 19, 2010 to Thursday, June 24, 2010

WSOP event # 36 1k buy-in with 3,102 players. I cashed taking a brutal beat when I had ace king diamonds in big blind verses the guy on the button. He moved allin preflop who had me covered. He had ten six hearts and hit runner, runner for a straight. I busted out in 320th place. I was mad but happy cause I had just cashed in my first ever WSOP live tourney. I cashed in event 47 as well. I cashed in two out of three WSOP bracelet event. The next year in may I went to WSOP circuit events in New Orleans, la. I cashed in two out of three events again. So I was now thinking I could actually do this. One of my friends is WSOP dealer. He told me since you seem to be running good why don't you come with me to Vegas for three months. I did, I got room in house for $75 a week fully furnished. While I was there I played thirty four tourneys. I made final tables sixteen times with only cashing in three. Most times seven players would make the money and I would take a cooler or bad beat and get knocked out right before the money. Vegas was a whole new beast to me. With most all the tourneys either, rebuys or reentries.I didn't have a big enough bankroll to out last the down swings verses the loose deep pocket gamblers there. So I tried and failed but I learned a lot from my time down there and I will be back for my revenge.. lol ​

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Wow, this was a really nice read. I hope you do go back for you revenge.

That self-motivation line is pretty underrated. We all think that right now everything is just pink and rainbows but who knows what happens down the line. The future can be unpredictable. It's easy to say "I can do this" but struggle long-term. In poker, I think players should avoid optimism and pessimism and stick to realism, which is basically just taking the best odds, not taking the option you believe in, because belief is just a reality-bend.

The article is nice, but puts too much focus on old things that are very often overrated.

Yet, it reminds us about some key aspects of poker, especially about the combination of poker with everyday life.


I played poker twice in my life. Actually, 3 times, if we include pre-Internet era.


Can you imagine 4 kids at the age of 11-12 who would gather in the apartment of one of them, smoke cigarettes and play "poker" ? By "poker", I mean "5 card draw".
This was the game we called "poker" in my country. Watching scenes with stud in some US movies was making us feel awkwardly. "WTF is this game ?" LOL


The second time I tried myself, was when online poker emerged. And "beginner's luck" kicked in. I was winning at the low stakes, and eventually I won a huge amount of around 50 000 $ from one tournament. Ah, I was so proud that Daniel Negreanu and Phil Ivey were nothing to me then ! LMAO, so wrong was I...
I spent immediately nearly 10 000 $ from that money to play "high-stake" tournaments. And I paid the package to go to WSOP. I busted in day 3, and I lost all the 10 000 $ spent on online tournaments.
However, I was careful to withdraw the 30 000 $.
I spent the money to pay for my wedding, to buy a car, to make a downpayment on an apartment and to invest in a small portfolio of securities.


I am a financier by profession and education. Mostly banker and project developer.
So, I know how to not go bankrupt ! But in poker, I am still not good in BRM !!! - LOL, but true.


My wife insisted that I should stop any sports bets, poker and FX speculation activities.
I agreed. So, back in 2006, all of my online accounts were officially closed.


But I decided to propose a new "deal" to her. And she agreed. She agreed that I will be allowed to play poker, if I never ever deposit any family money in any poker room. I was only allowed to play "with casino's money", i.e. whatever money I could earn from freerolls and re-invested freeroll earnings.
So, back in 2009, I had to re-open my accounts. Well, I had to open new accounts. And it was hell of an adventure to explain to 16 poker rooms why I wanted to open again an account with them. But none of them refused.
So, I had my new nicknames, my new Moneybookers account and my new enthusiasm.


I made my "first deposit" (in a room which recovered my "lifetime Platinum status" - LOL) when I was deep ITM in a nice 7,500 $ guaranteed tournament. As I always pay attention to discipline, I deposited 10 $, and half an hour later, I won 380 $ by reaching the FT. On top of that, I earned nearly 100 $ additional money due to promotions on my first deposit (mostly related to soccer bets). And the snowball started rolling.
The average net winnings I was able to generate over the years, were around 300 $ per month. A nice income, which allowed me to spend HALF for the "pleasure of feeling a winning player" and HALF to satisfy my wish to play poker.
In April 2016, I joined CardsChat. And when I check my leaderboard winnings and my non-leaderboard cash, I am earning 60 $ per month thanks to CardsChat.


Well, 360 $ per month still allow me to play a lot at the low stakes, and at the same time, I am still buying all Xmas presents for my family with poker money.


And now about the main topic - going pro.


Well, I am a financier, so mathematics and finance play significant part not only in my poker games, but in my whole life.
So, I would define 3 steps which I (or maybe most of us) must pass on my way to become a poker professional. (assuming that I really want to be a pro, which is debatable).


Step 1: to achieve positive net winnings in the long run.
In other words, to score profits.


Well, poker is played for fun and for money. But it is really debatable whether you can find a lot of fun, if you lose big money every day.
So, start at the low levels.
And don't risk your own money.
Even nowadays, there are still a lot of promotions and other sources of free poker money.
Grow a small bankroll. Then try playing "normally" at the low stakes, but follow the rules for BRM.


Step 2: to earn more $ per hour than from your normal job.
Last year, my normal job was paying me between 16 $ per hour and 50 $ per hour, depending on workload and project availability.
So, I set a task for myself - to start earning minimum 10 $ per hour and then to try to go to higher buy-ins.
Well, my 360 $ per month come in 120 hours of playing. So, 3 $ per hour. Very far from my target level.
Decision: continue playing poker at low levels and keep my job, until I become better player or prove that as a financier I am good enough and don't need experiments.


Step 3: to compare earnings and life expenses when I go to work and spend my time working versus my earnings and life expenses if I only play poker.


Yes, expenses are a factor.
BRM rules always show what to do if you have X dollars and WANT TO INVEST ALL OF THEM IN POKER.


But in life, you have to withdraw money, in order to pay for your expenses.


In terms of expenses, online poker is better than brick-and-mortar poker.


In order to go to Las Vegas, a big part of your expenses will not go for buy-ins, but for travel, accommodation and... entertainment !!!
Also, in casinos, rake is much higher than in online poker.
And in casinos, you see much less hands per hour than in online poker.
Also, you cannot multitable and multiroom in live poker.


Now compare paid job versus playing poker.
When you play poker, you can win, but also you can lose.
However, you must always pay your expenses.
On the other hand, your job pays you salary - without bad beats and variance.


Poker is always dependent on probabilities, and never gives any guarantee to win.
Imagine a situation:
You have 75% to 25% positive chance to either win 1 million jackpot or face death by hanging if you lose. Would you make the bet ?
I will not do it.
The chance is in my favor, but I cannot tolerate the variance.


The same is true in every day games. If one bad beat can destroy your food or rent money for 2 weeks - are you really willing to be a pro ? Are you ready to be a pro ?


So far, I play for fun, I hit it well sometimes, but I am far, far, far from becoming a poker pro.


So, I am enjoying one very big aspect of CardsChat - the social one. Here, I found friends who love the game which I love, who respect each other, respect the game, and make my time really nice and enjoyable.
Until I learn to play better and win big, I will have a lot of fun. After that - I will have even more fun !


GL to everyone in your endeavors to become good players !

would love to be a professional player , but the bankroll would be a definete problem