Phil Gordon makes a bad call during the MiniFTOPS #1?

Rldetheflop

Rldetheflop

Head Ranger
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 11, 2009
Total posts
1,959
Chips
0
I noticed Phil Gordon was playing in this so I decided to rail him for a bit. He spoke a few times and the print was in red so I assume it was the real Phil G.

then this hand came up. I guess once the cards are flipped he had just about the right pot odds to call according to pokerstove but for almost a third of his chips I think this is a fold. Anyone think this is a good call?
 
Last edited:
O

ollie627

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Total posts
47
Chips
0
terrible call lol so what happened?
 
pappasqueaks

pappasqueaks

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Total posts
141
Chips
0
must of donk most of his chips away it seems?
 
Hambone8705

Hambone8705

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 23, 2008
Total posts
136
Chips
0
Yeah it's a bad call. Are you sure that it wasn't a misclick? But what i noticed was the guy that's all in has THE BEST NAME EVER!!! LOL LOL LOL
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Total posts
3,713
Awards
1
Chips
4
It wasn't a big risk to his stack and he had two live cards.

It's not a bad call.
 
M

mikejm

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Total posts
212
Chips
0
if it was a tournamnet i would say that he was short stacked and just trying to get lucky and knock that guy out. if it was a cash game i really dont know what he is doing calling there.
 
dwolfg

dwolfg

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Total posts
583
Chips
0
He had to call 1023 to win 1823. So his pot odds were (1823/1023)=1.78 to 1 Using the break even point formula bep=1/(Pot odds+1) we get 1/(1.78+1)=.359. Meaning Phil needs to win 35.9% of the time to justify the call. Seeing as 104 wins against a5 37.5% of the time, Phil made a correct call according to the math.
 
dmorris68

dmorris68

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
May 27, 2008
Total posts
6,788
Awards
2
Chips
0
The shover is short at 5bb, Phil is already in for 1bb, so it's only a 4bb call. Phil being at 15bb before the deal knows he has to chip up soon and is nearing the push/fold himself, especially considering the ante. But if he loses, he still has 10bb behind which is still something to work with. Plus as noted he did have the price to call. All of those things considered, I think he made a good risk:reward call there, although I'm not entirely confident I could have done it.
 
robert_wrath

robert_wrath

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 22, 2007
Total posts
419
Chips
0
He had to call 1023 to win 1823. So his pot odds were (1823/1023)=1.78 to 1 Using the break even point formula bep=1/(Pot odds+1) we get 1/(1.78+1)=.359. Meaning Phil needs to win 35.9% of the time to justify the call. Seeing as 104 wins against a5 37.5% of the time, Phil made a correct call according to the math.

If your looking at this from a mathematical point of view, Gordon actually needs 2:1 pot odds or better to actually make the call.
 
dantheman91

dantheman91

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 20, 2009
Total posts
395
Chips
0
It seems like a borderline call. I wouldn't call it a really bad call..
 
L

Leatherass

DTB Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 18, 2009
Total posts
295
Chips
0
I think the call is fine. He could call or fold and it would make little difference in the long run, but it is definitely not a bad call.
 
KINGSIN

KINGSIN

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Total posts
81
Chips
0
I'm assuming this is a tour: The guy who pushed, is pretty much dead stacked with a 2CSI, and Phil isn't doing to great with a 6CSI, the call is so close- Id say call. Think about it this way, say he folds and pushes in a couple of hands, will a person call 2300 but fold to 3300, probably not, with the stacks at the table. Now if he wins he'll have $5200, Big stack will have more trouble calling his pushes when its a third to fourth of their stack. Plus his blind is less likely to be attacked after they see him defend it with a hand such as T4s, which is really helpfull when blinds are high and even more so with presences of antes. Id say call.
 
E

Eclipsenz

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 18, 2009
Total posts
185
Chips
0
Terrible call just fold and wait for a better spot imo, I don't agree with the whole odds mathmatical formula and how people follow suit with it, i mean if thats the case even if he called 2-7os here it wouldn't be bad here either cause oh they're live cards.

stupid.
 
Rldetheflop

Rldetheflop

Head Ranger
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 11, 2009
Total posts
1,959
Chips
0
Ok...so what happened???


I didnt post the results cause I didnt think it was relevant to the question.

the board missed them both and he went on to lose the hand.

I wasnt trying to trash the guy I love Phil Gordon. His little green book was the first poker book I read. I never called it a REALLY bad call. Just asked if anyone else thought this should be a fold.

Like I said in the OP, when the cards flipped he had just about the odds to call but barely and to me this was best case scenario for him. And for nearly a third of his remaining stack I would think it is a pretty decent hit to his stack.

So basically if we say the call is good we are saying that the difference between 14+BB vs <10BB (fold vs. call/loss) is less damaging than 14+BB vs. 21.7BB (fold vs. call/win) is helpful?

now obviously the call/win scenario gains more than the call/loss scenario loses but considering best case scenario puts you at around a 2-1 dog it still seems kind of marginal to me.

However, if Leatherass says its ok to call then I will have to take his word for it and re-evaluate my thinking about these situations.
 
Last edited:
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Total posts
3,713
Awards
1
Chips
4
I didnt post the results cause I didnt think it was relevant to the question.

the board missed them both and he went on to lose the hand.

I wasnt trying to trash the guy I love Phil Gordon. His little green book was the first poker book I read. I never called it a REALLY bad call. Just asked if anyone else thought this should be a fold.

Like I said in the OP, when the cards flipped he had just about the odds to call but barely and to me this was best case scenario for him. And for nearly a third of his remaining stack I would think it is a pretty decent hit to his stack.

So basically if we say the call is good we are saying that the difference between 14+BB vs <10BB (fold vs. call/loss) is less damaging than 14+BB vs. 21.7BB (fold vs. call/win) is helpful?

now obviously the call/win scenario gains more than the call/loss scenario loses but considering best case scenario puts you at around a 2-1 dog it still seems kind of marginal to me.

However, if Leatherass says its a good call then I will have to take his word for it and re-evaluate my thinking about these situations.

I don't think anyone's saying it's a good call. Just not a horrible one.
 
Rldetheflop

Rldetheflop

Head Ranger
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 11, 2009
Total posts
1,959
Chips
0
I don't think anyone's saying it's a good call. Just not a horrible one.

Oh I definitely didnt say it was horrible. In fact the title is actually a question. The reason I put bad call in the title was to gain interest in the thread. Seems to have worked. lol
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Total posts
3,713
Awards
1
Chips
4
Definately,

I like discussing these situations.

Phil knew the guy had a marginal hand that his ten four suited plays okay against. I think this is more of a gamble than a calculated call.

Phil was below his starting stack at this point. I probably would have folded but depending on what I have seen from the villian, I might have called too.

I definately don't think this was a bad call in any way though.

I like this thread.
 
Rldetheflop

Rldetheflop

Head Ranger
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 11, 2009
Total posts
1,959
Chips
0
I think the call is fine. He could call or fold and it would make little difference in the long run, but it is definitely not a bad call.

At the risk of a thread derail, I must comment on this because it gave me pause for thought.

I wonder how much time I spend on EV neutral decisions while studying. It seems that the hands I agonize the most over are ones that are really close. I think this statement has made me realize that spending a lot of time on really close decisions(which by definition are pretty much EV neutral right?) is a waste. I should be spending my time trying to decrease situations where I am at a disadvantage and increase situations where I have the advantage duh!


Now with that being said, We should recognize fairly quickly when we have a huge advantage/disadvantage so making the right close decision is probably important but I think recognizing when a play is EV neutral is important as well so we dont agonize over those.
 
L

LBroadbent

Rising Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 17, 2008
Total posts
20
Chips
0
I, like many others, will say that it wasn't a horrible call. In fact, given the chip stacks, the fact Gordon is in the big blind and the all-in isn't a huge amount (despite the fact it's around a third of Gordon's stack, but he's pretty short himself) then I may even say it was a decent call.
 
aikindoma

aikindoma

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 22, 2010
Total posts
179
Chips
0
If someone would tell me Phil Gordon calls all in with T4 suited,
I would never believe it !!!

Decent or not, that was gambling...
 
forsakenone

forsakenone

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Total posts
1,385
Chips
0
so most of you are saying he made the good call because of the mats, because 104 wins against A5 this % of the time. but did any of you think that the other guys could have had anything else? i understand the guy has 5 big blinds but still, most of his range is way above A5, phil got lucky the guy only had A5, he could have had JJ or 99, or AA why not, situations where phil is way behind.

so therefor my thinking is this: unless you are sure he has A5 (which you will never know unless he tells you) therefor just barely justifying a really borderline call, you should fold this.

plus i can't really understand people that justify that because phil himself is shortstacked he made a good call, is his spot shouldn't you wait for good spots? position position position, steal some blinds, shove any 2 good cards in late position. i think that is what himself is preaching.

personally i believe he made a miss click or just wanted to gamble, or simply didn't care much about the MTT.
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Total posts
3,713
Awards
1
Chips
4
so most of you are saying he made the good call because of the mats, because 104 wins against A5 this % of the time. but did any of you think that the other guys could have had anything else? i understand the guy has 5 big blinds but still, most of his range is way above A5, phil got lucky the guy only had A5, he could have had JJ or 99, or AA why not, situations where phil is way behind.

so therefor my thinking is this: unless you are sure he has A5 (which you will never know unless he tells you) therefor just barely justifying a really borderline call, you should fold this.

plus i can't really understand people that justify that because phil himself is shortstacked he made a good call, is his spot shouldn't you wait for good spots? position position position, steal some blinds, shove any 2 good cards in late position. i think that is what himself is preaching.

personally i believe he made a miss click or just wanted to gamble, or simply didn't care much about the MTT.

1st - nobody said it was a good call.

2nd - Phil's the one with the reads on this player.

3rd - How do you know that most of his range is way above A5?
 
M

Mr Whatever

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Total posts
232
Chips
0
he was there to host it, not play. he probably had better things to do anyway.

alot of the full tilt pros dont take these low buyins tourns seriously anyway. kinda hard to when they play way higher.
 
Top