The Paradoxical Nature of Giving Good Advice On Public Poker Forums

With the explosion of the internet and the popularity of poker in general, it has become increasingly easy to obtain information on how to play the game. Most would say that this poker explosion has made the game harder to beat than in the past. While you still get the occasional fish who sits down and thinks his 93s is actually a monster preflop, those types are supposedly much fewer than in the old days (pre 2000's) when information was harder to come by and those "in the know" could really mop up.

This leads me to pose the question: In a public, non-profit setting, where is the benefit in teaching others to play better poker?

In theory, you want as many clueless fish swimming around out there as possible to contribute to your bankroll. So for those that are at the top of the poker food chain, why does it make sense to contribute worthwhile information that can potentially cut into your profits?

I don't mean to undermine the purpose and efforts of this site or poker forums in general -- I enjoy both giving advice and learning from what others have written and have my own reasons and limits as to what I will advise and believe, which I am hoping will come out in discussion later in this thread. I am very curious how other people think about this seemingly incongruous phenomenon.

In this forum we are a community (like a family) so people want to help their fellow members if they actually want the help.
I don't think it is necessarily cutting into anyone's profits as the ppl who are wanting to learn play at different stakes than those who have figured it out and are providing help.

The idea is to help people the same way you have most likely been helped in the past. Least that is what I hear from all the people that have ever given me solid advice.

mrmonkey said:

With the explosion of the internet and the popularity of poker in general, it has become increasingly easy to obtain information on how to play the game. Most would say that this poker explosion has made the game harder to beat than in the past. While you still get the occasional fish who sits down and thinks his 93s is actually a monster preflop, those types are supposedly much fewer than in the old days (pre 2000's) when information was harder to come by and those "in the know" could really mop up.

This leads me to pose the question: In a public, non-profit setting, where is the benefit in teaching others to play better poker?

In theory, you want as many clueless fish swimming around out there as possible to contribute to your bankroll. So for those that are at the top of the poker food chain, why does it make sense to contribute worthwhile information that can potentially cut into your profits?

I don't mean to undermine the purpose and efforts of this site or poker forums in general -- I enjoy both giving advice and learning from what others have written and have my own reasons and limits as to what I will advise and believe, which I am hoping will come out in discussion later in this thread. I am very curious how other people think about this seemingly incongruous phenomenon.

Click to expand...

Well put it like this.

There are many free forums offering poker advice.

There are also many video coaching forums offering great information at very little cost.

With all of this information available why are you not crushing the nose bleed levels?

True, the standard of play has risen due to these resources, but the level of difficulty remains roughly what it was historically.

I wouldn't imagine the ratio of winners to losers has changed all that much in the last 20 years.

With all of this info out there people are still limping A2o UTG and that just the tip of the iceberg of mistakes people still make.

PooffyFooffy said:

In this forum we are a community (like a family) so people want to help their fellow members if they actually want the help.
I don't think it is necessarily cutting into anyone's profits as the ppl who are wanting to learn play at different stakes than those who have figured it out and are providing help.

Click to expand...

I really like the sense of community that cardschat has. I would say it has one of the strongest feelings of camaraderie amongst its members in comparison to other poker forums I have perused.

However, even though the participating members are a community helping each other to grow, we are NOT a private community and all threads and posts are easily within view of a google search or any random joe who passes on by. It is in this sense that any information or advice given is really part of the public domain, and not so much directed or kept within an insular community -- although information shared here does help make cardschat grow which is actually a pretty good motivator.

In regards to stakes, myself being in the micros/freerolls I do actually find myself questioning whether or not to provide insight on actual playing strategy to others at the same levels. I probably wouldn't have any issue with this at all be it not for the fact that hundreds/thousands of non-cardschat members could also see the information. The things I have to say are not any different than what one could find elsewhere, but why increase the chances that someone sees it and is then able to make it harder for me to play?

I do feel very comfortable offering advice and discussing topics such as bankroll management and promotions and such for getting a bankroll started, but find myself pulling up short when it comes to actual playing strategies for people playing the same games I am in. Maybe I am being too paranoid about this that I would actually end up at the same tables as someone I have helped?

I make it a rule to not give helpful advice to people when I'm playing on the tables, so should it be any different when I am off the tables?

kmixer said:

The idea is to help people the same way you have most likely been helped in the past. Least that is what I hear from all the people that have ever given me solid advice.

Click to expand...

I think this is the main reason why I do like to offer help where I feel I can; the sense of altruism one gets for imparting some knowledge that will help a fellow in a similar or familiar spot.

But isn't altruistic behavior at odds with this hobby that we love so much?

Personally, I think there is a balance to be struck between brutally maximizing profits at every possible avenue and in enjoyment of the game -- and there is plenty of enjoyment that can be gleaned from helping others and in being helped by others.

Stu_Ungar said:

Well put it like this.

There are many free forums offering poker advice.

There are also many video coaching forums offering great information at very little cost.

With all of this information available why are you not crushing the nose bleed levels?

True, the standard of play has risen due to these resources, but the level of difficulty remains roughly what it was historically.

I wouldn't imagine the ratio of winners to losers has changed all that much in the last 20 years.

With all of this info out there people are still limping A2o UTG and that just the tip of the iceberg of mistakes people still make.

Click to expand...

I do see your point about the information being available, but it still requiring dedication and skill for a player to synthesize and apply the information properly.

While the ratio of winners to losers is probably still the same, the amount of effort required to be a winner is probably higher now that the bar has risen, and I think this is due to the ubiquity and ease of finding good poker strategy information for free almost anywhere.

I am just conjecturing here, as I didn't really start playing poker more seriously until about 6 months ago, but I imagine that one could have been fairly profitable in the early 2000's by simply studying preflop hand charts and having an understanding of pot odds. As these things became common knowledge, people had to study and learn more to gain an edge on the average poker player, so that to beat the average player now requires a little more knowledge than just hand strength and pot odds.

Sure, you still do get some people doing silly things like always playing any suited two from any position, or people calling off their stack with improper odds on a 6-outter, but I assume the numbers of these types is less than it was in the days when good information was harder to come by.

In this sense then, perhaps the availability of information really does not matter, as long as one stays ahead of the curve? But will it ever reach a point when joe average fish is already imbued with the ability to make accurate ev calculations on the fly?

I guess probably not. And my reasoning for this is that those who are dedicated to be winners will be the ones who seek out the information, and those who are destined to be losers are the ones who won't bother to learn beyond a certain point. In which case, discussions and advice threads on sites like cardschat only help the winners get stronger, as the losers won't bother to read what is posted.

Helping others helps your own game a lot, probably more than the person you are helping.

Plus we're all just trying to get you micro guys up to the level where we can take your money. And all those who help me are just trying (probably in vain) to get me to a level where they can take my money.

Vicious bastards!

mrmonkey said:

While the ratio of winners to losers is probably still the same, the amount of effort required to be a winner is probably higher now that the bar has risen, and I think this is due to the ubiquity and ease of finding good poker strategy information for free almost anywhere.

Click to expand...

That is just not the case.

In the past people had to figure out all of this without these resources.. so whilst the level of play was lower, the effort required to get to that level is just what it is today.

Basically what you are saying is that people didnt try as hard to be better than the next person.

Im saying that the level of dedication hasnt really changed, but the increased availability of information raises the bar.

These days we know far more about equity. You should know more about equity .. we have poker stove. Imaginge having to do equity calculations by hand. Its time consuming. But I would imagine that most top players from the past had a good idea of equity in standard spots because they would do the equity calcs. They wouldnt have as good an understanding in wierd spots because they probably never put the time into that. We on the other hand put a range and a board into pokerstove and get an answer, so we would be expected to know far more about equity if we put in the same level of dedication as the guy who sat down and wrote them out longhand.

mrmonkey said:

I am just conjecturing here, as I didn't really start playing poker more seriously until about 6 months ago, but I imagine that one could have been fairly profitable in the early 2000's by simply studying preflop hand charts and having an understanding of pot odds. As these things became common knowledge, people had to study and learn more to gain an edge on the average poker player, so that to beat the average player now requires a little more knowledge than just hand strength and pot odds.

Click to expand...

This is true, but by the same token the player pool was smaller so you would have found it more difficult to put those skills to use.

WVHillbilly said:

Helping others helps your own game a lot, probably more than the person you are helping.

Click to expand...

You took the words right out of my mouth. By going through and analyzing other's hands, or your own, or talking about poker, it gets you thinking about things in a different manner than you usually would if you were just going over your own hands. Many poker coaches talk about this when asked why they would coach and essentially give away their exact playing style, because them going through either their own hands or a students hands help them in the long run as well.

On a side note, I think you are being way to paranoid. Virtually no one at the freeroll/extreme micro levels are googling usernames of the people they are playing to find out what their strategies are, not to mention, even if they were, they probably wouldn't have the understanding of it in the sense that they could use it to exploit you. I could play 100 SnG's against someone and find out essentially what his style of play is and how he plays certain stages/hand types, whether he follows any ICM model based on his play, whatever, it still doesn't mean I am going to beat him every time. Anyone that has tracking software and has been playing with you for any reasonable amount of time is going to have more info in that then they would probably get out of the forums.

Also, if you're really that paranoid, just make your username diferent than it is on the poker sites you play on...

WVHillbilly said:

Helping others helps your own game a lot, probably more than the person you are helping.

Plus we're all just trying to get you micro guys up to the level where we can take your money. And all those who help me are just trying (probably in vain) to get me to a level where they can take my money.

Vicious bastards!

Click to expand...

Best way to learn something is to teach it.

WVHillbilly said:

Helping others helps your own game a lot, probably more than the person you are helping.

Click to expand...

This is a very good point which I hadn't conceptualized until you just stated it so succinctly. I have found myself growing a lot since starting to participate here, and I think it is because of all the thinking about my own game I've had to do because of it. One of the areas I desperately need help in is bankroll discipline -- I intellectually know all the management principles but have a hard time actually practicing them as I am a huge loss chaser that is prone to blowing weeks/months of hard work on one session.

So to both help the community and to get at the root of my own problem, I'm currently researching/drafting an article for cardschat about the psychology and prevention of chasing losses. I think this is a huge problem for many people trying to get out of the micros, and likely for some that DID grind their way out but ended back there not necessarily as a result of their play but because of their lack of discipline. Hopefully in researching and writing the article, I will be able to resolve my own issues with it!

Plus we're all just trying to get you micro guys up to the level where we can take your money. And all those who help me are just trying (probably in vain) to get me to a level where they can take my money.

Vicious bastards!

Click to expand...

LOL, this thought did occur to me as well. I guess it's like a learning tax we all have to pay?

Stu_Ungar said:

In the past people had to figure out all of this without these resources.. so whilst the level of play was lower, the effort required to get to that level is just what it is today.

Basically what you are saying is that people didnt try as hard to be better than the next person.

Im saying that the level of dedication hasnt really changed, but the increased availability of information raises the bar.

Click to expand...

I see, this is very true -- the effort required to learn about starting hands and pot odds in the past is now like the effort required to learn about equity. I forgot that learning such things in the past would have been more difficult, and would have required book purchases or other types of dedicated research.

Although, I would say that concepts such as equity are a little more difficult to grasp then hand strengths and pot odds. So even though we have pokerstove and reading about equity is just a few clicks away, it requires a little more thinking and tinkering than learning about hand strengths and pot odds. However, as long as new players continue to be introduced into poker then I do see your point that there will always be undedicated players to capitalize off of. I think what worries me is if poker loses its mainstream luster and the supply of unthinking players begins to dry up... but it doesn't seem to be the case as of yet.

absoluthamm said:

On a side note, I think you are being way to paranoid. Virtually no one at the freeroll/extreme micro levels are googling usernames of the people they are playing to find out what their strategies are, not to mention, even if they were, they probably wouldn't have the understanding of it in the sense that they could use it to exploit you. I could play 100 SnG's against someone and find out essentially what his style of play is and how he plays certain stages/hand types, whether he follows any ICM model based on his play, whatever, it still doesn't mean I am going to beat him every time. Anyone that has tracking software and has been playing with you for any reasonable amount of time is going to have more info in that then they would probably get out of the forums.

Also, if you're really that paranoid, just make your username diferent than it is on the poker sites you play on...

Click to expand...

I'm not really concerned about people targeting me at the micros/freerolls... I guess I'm just blowing out of proportion the possible effect that a few hundred people reading some poker theory would have on making the micros a little tougher to beat. Putting it the way that you did, gaining the insight in thinking about my posts and beginning an exchange on ideas likely outweighs the possible (minor) negative effects of slightly improving a few others' game.

I will say this though... I have sometimes drafted lengthy replies which caused me to do some analysis and which I have learned from... but decided not to actually post the reply due to selfish motives. Has anyone else done this, or am I really that much of a selfish/paranoid bastard? :hmmmm:

Or you can just do what I do. Give bad advice.

No one ever says this, but its also an ego boost to help people. Helping someone innately means you're superior to them, at least in that specific area.

So yeah, people help others because:

1) It makes them feel good, since they've done a good deed.
2) It makes them feel superior to that person, ego boost.
3) They were helped in a similar way.
4) It helps them become a better player, and understand their own game more.

And yes, the games have gotten tougher. I've never played on Party, but I did play on UB back when the poker boom was still going. I remember having discussions with my brother that AJo was an all-in preflop hand in a $2NL cash game, because there were so many idiots shoving so wide. That's not the case anymore. But the games are still plenty soft, mostly because advice will only get you so far. The majority of the people who play poker don't have the ability to execute the advice given to them.

c9 is smart

vanquish said:

c9 is smart

Click to expand...

There you go boosting his ego again. You know he likes that.


Oh yeah and I agree completely.

I hate doing it and try not to as much as possible and confine my comments to other aspects of online poker. But then I need to ask for help sometimes and by doing that I am educating other people.

It bothers me for sure, but do consider, that there will always be fish who never ever bother with a forum; even registering would be too much effort for them.

I have learned probably 90 percent of what I know about poker from forums and videos. After so many people have given me a free education by their posts it is only right that I return the favor if I can.

As far as educating the fish hurting the games.. meh, the pool of fish is large, the number of players who want to learn is relatively small. I think that we are a long way from "Everyone's solid, no money to be made".

Just the other night I had a guy call off half his stack with Q9 off suit. There are lots of players who don't read forums.

Let me ask this... How many members do we have here at CC? I mean I play at PS and FT which are the largest sites and there's probably a good chance that I rarely play against someone who is active in this forum.

That being said if a person is truely a fish then I dont imagine theyre putting in the quality time here or any other study site to move out of that fishy category. The fish that are here usually announce themselves with post about how "good they are", how "Online Poker is rigged" or how theyre going to run there bankroll from 0 to $5,000 in the month of December.

Fish is a relative term. At $10 and under sit and go's, I dont consider myself a fish.... At a 0.50/1.00 cash table Im probably the biggest Guppie at the table. So I dont think Ive taken any money out of anyone's pocket from here because of this forum.

I genuinly reading a post from someone here who just brought down there first big score. Plenty of fish out there for all of us. Keep the comradery going in this forum.

^^^
This. Well put.

The benifit for you is that you are helping others see something a different way.....moreover, it can be a benefit to you as well especially when others discuss a poker topic and someone says something that makes the light come on.....hey!!!!! I got it.......they say it in your terms or in a way thsat is easy for you to grasp. It is like authors....some articulate very well, and you pick up what they are saying very easy and very quickly..... others not so much....For me I can prove it with all the books I have.....All them dam books and all of them ended up saying the same thing......but in a different way.....Probably a hand full is all I really needed. With all that said.......the info out there in many different ways as others have stated here, but ......but.......but.......it still is up to them to find it-process it-interpret it-chew on it-and use it. If they are interested about it....they will.....if not.....well they will gladly donate to our cause.....

I have 6 friends who I know in real life who all got into playing online poker because they saw how well i have been doing. Not realizing the time and effort spent educating myself which they dont do for themselves. They are all loosing players playing at various stakes.

Hopefully by helping you beat the micros, your friends will do the same thing as mine.

nc_royals said:

Let me ask this... How many members do we have here at CC? I mean I play at PS and FT which are the largest sites and there's probably a good chance that I rarely play against someone who is active in this forum.

That being said if a person is truely a fish then I dont imagine theyre putting in the quality time here or any other study site to move out of that fishy category. The fish that are here usually announce themselves with post about how "good they are", how "Online Poker is rigged" or how theyre going to run there bankroll from 0 to $5,000 in the month of December.

Fish is a relative term. At $10 and under sit and go's, I dont consider myself a fish.... At a 0.50/1.00 cash table Im probably the biggest Guppie at the table. So I dont think Ive taken any money out of anyone's pocket from here because of this forum.

I genuinly reading a post from someone here who just brought down there first big score. Plenty of fish out there for all of us. Keep the comradery going in this forum.

Click to expand...

I think OP is referring to 'forums' in general (along with training vid sites, coaching, etc...... I'm assuming anyways as they referred to it as 'obtaining information via internet').

WVHillbilly said:

Helping others helps your own game a lot, probably more than the person you are helping.

Plus we're all just trying to get you micro guys up to the level where we can take your money. And all those who help me are just trying (probably in vain) to get me to a level where they can take my money.

Vicious bastards!

Click to expand...

I love this because of how true it is.

At least trying to help others will make you discover some of your game leaks because of not having the knowledge for answering one of the questions.

So from this results ... YOUR GAME IS GETTING BETTER AND BETTER EACH TIME YOU HELP SOMEONE!

Makwa said:

Best way to learn something is to teach it.

Click to expand...

I don't know how to tie my shoes, but if I teach someone how to tie thier shoes - I'll get better at tying my own shoes.

How stupid.